Tuesday, March 27, 2007

My Modest Proposal

This post is considered SATIRE. I do not truly feel it is appropriate that popular culture figures such as Eminem, Howard Stern, or Oprah Winfrey should speak at a church conference, but given the overview of the Humana Conference, this writer thinks some of these figures might fit in perfectly in that setting.--R.A.

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To All Subcultural Architects: My Modest Proposal

Humana, a conference in Orlando Florida, has come and gone. I understand that it was a great week. Its overview statement mentioned that its purpose was to "create environments that expand imagination and unleash creativity." As I scan some of the names of the keynote speakers, I am dismayed. Who are these people? Sure, I’ve heard of one of the speakers; I’ve reviewed some of his books and he considers himself a "futurist" and "cultural architect." But you can hardly say Erwin McManus has registered much with the overall culture at large. If you put all the people of his Mosaic churches in one big room, how many would that be, 3,000 people? Okay, I’ll spot you his Mosaic Inland, Mosaic New York and Seattle and all the other Mosaics sprouting up on our landscape. How many heads is that total? I’ll be generous: 10,000? That’s a good number for a church but nothing compared to the amount of people who saw "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" last weekend. Total box office: $25 million. His book sales do brisk business in Christian bookstores but he might as well sell books out of his car trunk when you compare him to that cultural phenomenon Mitch Albom. His Tuesdays with Morrie has eleven million copies in print. From this we can conclude that McManus and others like him, such as the speakers at Humana and Origins Los Angeles conference, are not cultural architects but more like subcultural architects. They are not reaching the culture but a culture within the culture: the Christian market. McManus is great at preaching to the choir but what about the unchurched, non-Christian culture? To these, McManus is completely irrelevant. Well, irrelevant is a relative term. Most people have never even heard of him. Larry King is irrelevant. Jean Claude Van Damme is irrelevant. Yes, Erwin is a big fish in a very small pond, indeed. If Humana is going to have any significant and lasting impact in the world it needs to feature real transformers of our culture rather than icons of the subculture. My modest proposal is that we have the architects that unleash "imagination, and creativity" upon our culture come and speak at Humana/Origins. Who are these people? Here is my list. If you want to add to my partial list, feel free to add your comments.
FILM
Zack Snyder (Director) Yes, I realize he’s only made two major features but his "300" was made on the cheap and it did boffo box office. Every studio wants to work with him and his upcoming "Watchmen" is eagerly anticipated. He would be a welcome addition to Humana/Origins because he is such a hip cat.
Jonathan Nolan (Screenwriter) His work includes "Memento," "The Prestige" and the upcoming "Dark Knight." He might not have a great time at Humana, however, because he’s the bookish, "intellectual" type. But he is hot in the industry right now.
TV
Oprah Winfrey(Talk Show Host) You cannot overstate Oprah’s impact on culture. Her recommendation of William Faulkner’s Light in August shot it to the New York Times bestseller list even though the book was written over eighty years ago. Oprah would fit in nicely at Humana.
Rupert Murdoch(CEO) Few believed he could do it, but he has turned his Fox TV channel into a force with monster hits like "American Idol" and "24." He also owns the runaway ratings leader Fox News Channel. His non-TV entities include 20th Century Fox, the New York Post, and My Space. An argument can be made that he is the cultural architect of our day. He may not want to come to Humana but he could bankroll the whole thing.
MUSIC
Eminem (Rap Artist) His "Marshall Mathers LP" and "8Mile" were not only monster hits but a cultural phenomenon that influenced the worlds of music, movies, and even fashion. He might not make such a good choice for a keynote speaker at Humana, though.
U2 (Rock Band) Album after album, they continue to sell. Everything they do goes platinum and they would make a great worship team at Humana.
RADIO
Rush Limbaugh (Talk Show Host) No matter what you think of his politics, he is an absolute giant in his field. He is considered by many as the man who saved AM radio and he spawned a legion of influences that can be heard daily on the radio. He would be a natural speaker at Humana since he is so comfortable behind a mic.
Howard Stern (Talk Show Host) Another huge influence in the world of broadcasting and he even ventured successfully in the worlds of film, books, and TV. He might be reminded of the speech guidelines if he is asked to speak at Humana.
COMPUTERS
Bill Gates (CEO) Enough said.
Steve Jobs (CEO) His company gave us Apple, Pixar, and the Ipod. At Humana, he would feel comfortable with some of the tech-speak, but when talk turns to the "mystic," he’s outta there.

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EdfromBocaRaton said:
No list of cultural architects is complete without the name Steven Spielberg. What were you thinking?

Ruben said:
Ed, I also left off David Geffen and Jeffrey Katzenberg of Dreamworks. I didn’t have the temerity to list these in the presence of us mere mortals.

Anonymous said:
I think you’ve misunderstood the ministry of Erwin. He is trying to stir passionate followers of Jesus Christ. Humana is a conference that attempts to awaken those followers to unleash their creative impulses through art, dance, and leadership. Erwin has been a key figure in that movement.

Ruben said:
And you’ve misunderstood my point. We need to get serious about reaching our culture. I’ve provided a list of the very people who are doing so. Erwin and the other keynote speakers at Humana might be important in your cloistered Christian circles but so what? His following is scattered and few compared to the true architects of the day. To say Erwin is a key figure in the movement is like saying the hot dog guy at Dodger stadium is the one garnering all the attention. While it is true that there are ten people clamoring around the guy for a Dodger Dog, 50, 000 people came to watch the real stars: Derek Lowe, Jeff Kent, and Rafael Furcal.

Jenny said:
Your suggestion that Howard Stern speak at Humana is disgusting. Stern is a foul-mouthed ignoramus.

Ruben said:
When Stern signed with Sirius radio he sent shares of their stock skyrocketing. He has millions of loyal listeners. What have you done for the culture lately?

John said:
My pastor Phil Stein teaches us the Bible on Sundays and apologetics on Wednesdays. Though the congregation is small (about fifty members), we owe a deep gratitude to his ministry. He has to supplement his income through odd jobs like maintenance and plumbing. So what if his ministry is "irrelevant" in your eyes? He preaches Christ and Him crucified. That’s what matters.

Ruben said:
Who is this Phil Stein? I’ve never heard of him.

JerrydeCovina said:
You might want to consider I Corinthians, my friend. The word of the cross is foolish to those who are perishing. But it is still the power of God. You are beating your head against the wall if you think the message of the cross is going to impact the culture as a whole the way Oprah Winfrey or Rupert Murdoch has. The church may have created certain inroads into culture in the past with the "The Passion of the Christ" movie and the "Purpose-Driven" book but those are exceptions. The message of Christ will always be unpopular to this secular culture. I have a question for you: where in the Bible does it say we need to impact our culture?

Ruben said:
Um, I’ve run out of time, I must be going…

44 comments:

Anonymous said...

I think that you are missing the "behind the scenes" of Mosaic’s and Erwin’s ability shape culture. Do not assume that because someone is not in the spotlight or given tons of money that they aren't affecting culture. Not too many Christian personalities can say that they have the attention of the Disney Corporation's CEO. Not too many people can say that they are invited to dinners in Beverly Hills with Dr. Phil, Larry King and 50 of the A list Hollywood celebrities. Funny you mentioned American Idol. A recent contestant from Mosaic got them access to the FOX network’s executives. With that, not too many churches can say that these major studios are now calling them up to do a reality television show on their “influential and innovative” community. Not every pastor is entrusted with the faith work at White Memorial Hospital. Not just any church in a major metropolitan area can say that more than 30% of their congregation is unchurched. It’s not how many you influence, it is who you are influencing.

I am sure it will be followed up with some witty comment involving kool-aid.

Anonymous said...

Hey anonymous#1,
I am a follower of Jesus Christ who attempted to unleash my creative impulses through art. Then Erwin called the cops on me.

Anonymous said...

I am not sure that all are truly understanding the point here. Erwin calls himself a "Cultural Architect". Bottom line, that title belongs to Jesus and Jesus alone. Outside of that, let's look at the Howard Sterns and see what they are influencing society and culture for? Preach the Gospel and love the unloved. Not sure where Erwin McManus and his few fit into this command.

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...

Not too many Christian personalities can say that they have the attention of the Disney Corporation's CEO. - BOAST - Not too many people can say that they are invited to dinners in Beverly Hills with Dr. Phil, Larry King and 50 of the A list Hollywood celebrities. - BOAST - Funny you mentioned American Idol. A recent contestant from Mosaic got them access to the FOX network’s executives. - BOAST - With that, not too many churches can say that these major studios are now calling them up to do a reality television show on their “influential and innovative” community. - BOAST - Not every pastor is entrusted with the faith work at White Memorial Hospital. - BOAST - Not just any church in a major metropolitan area can say that more than 30% of their congregation is unchurched. - BOAST - It’s not how many you influence, it is who you are influencing. - BOAST -

I am sure it will be followed up with some witty comment involving kool-aid. - NOT NECESSARY -

Anonymous said...

"... Disney Corporation's CEO." [Bob Iger]... Dr. Phil, Larry King 50 of the A list Hollywood celebrities. Funny you mentioned American Idol... FOX network’s executives...major studios ... White Memorial Hospital."

Thanks for that update. Certainly all of the above will appreciate an MOP update.

Cris Aguilar said...

Prostitutes. Lepers. Murderers. Thieves. The dregs of society. He even spent some time with the average blue collar worker, Fishermen. I guess they were culturally relevant.

Is the reason Jesus focused on them due to the fact that they were in tune?
.

Anonymous said...

"Cris Aguilar said...
Prostitutes. Lepers. Murderers. Thieves. The dregs of society. He even spent some time with the average blue collar worker, Fishermen. I guess they were culturally relevant.

Is the reason Jesus focused on them due to the fact that they were in tune?"


Oh my! Those kind of people sound like what might have been found at that "stuck in a 70's groove church" called Brady.

One would be hard pressed to find anyone like that at a relevant place like Mosaic. They're hanging with the CEO's and Dr. Phils.

Anonymous said...

It's interesting to me that so many churches are beginning to become so focused on becoming culturally relevant. For over two thousand
years the message of Christ has been communicated in many different ways to many different cultures. The thing that has been consistent, is the unwillingness inside of man's heart to embrace the truth of Jesus Christ.

About seven years ago while I was attending mosaic, I began a new job, and met a guy named Noah. Noah was not a believer, but we soon became good friends, as we
worked together as assistant editors. For months I would spend hours upon hours talking to Noah about God. I would even invite him and others to urban mosaic. I would
tell them how it was in a club and how the service would always incorporate artistic elements. I soon became known as someone who was a follower of Christ. People would even make jokes about my persistence. However, my friends were always willing to sit and engage in conversations with me about Christ. There were even a few
that actually visited mosaic. I would always later, feel bad about this, because I really thought they would be impacted by the mosaic community. Instead, there were more than a few times, that my non Christian friends would have no interest in revisiting mosaic for a
second time. One friend even confessed to me, that he
found the service to be a little "unsettling".

During my first years working with Noah, he allowed me to make one of my first short films based around our conversations. I invite you to take a look at the film, and take notice as to what the conversation
ultimately comes down to.


http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2018047782

Anonymous said...

Those who do not yet know Jesus are looking for one thing. Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Recently, in fact last Thursday, I was talking to a friend at work. She told me that her and her husband (who works in the entertainment industry) attended a mosaic gathering in Pasadena. She told me that her husband felt that mosaic was, and I am directly quoting her here, "a cult". She also said that she felt that Erwin was very, again I am directly quoting her, "narcissistic"! She told me all of this upon me simply asking her, "what did you think about mosaic?" Before this discussion, we had never talked about religion or church.

Anonymous said...

People who do not know Jesus need Jesus, but they are not looking for Him. The Bible says that no one seeks after God!!

Anonymous said...

My sister-n-law visited Mosaic a couple of years ago and didn't quite believe it was a church. She found the entertainers entertaining, but said that if I hadn't told her it was a church service she wouldn't have believed it. She and so many people across our country go to church on Sunday and expect to hear the word of God. I think we get your point Mosaic, your relavent, your like the world. It just seems a little disingenuous. I'm just not ready to jump on that train. (really tempted to throw in kool-aid) MH

Anonymous said...

I see Michael, so you are proposing we give the Erwin & Mosaic instead?

Anonymous said...

Ruben you said Erwin was a big fish in a small pond. That may be enough. Think about it he's selling his ideas to a flock who are not walking, but running to the christian book stores to buy his books. And don't forget those churches who have agreed to give Mosaic 5% of their church budget if they agree to be level 3 Adventurers. You either believe in the guy or you don't. He has sparked something in people's hearts that they were longing for. He understands that our Soul Craves Jesus. Just don't forget to pay your $19.99 at the register. mooooo

Anonymous said...

mosaic of pain has requested me to become friends on myspace. don't know how they decided to, but whatever.

ruben, i don't disagree that Eriwn is not impacting the world on a global or celebrity scale. i'm not very impressed by you simply naming a bunch of celebrity names like oprah, eminem, and such, anyone can make that argument that those names indeed will be names that people not only recognize, but they also have major influences on society.

all you can do in response to others comments are " say who?" "say what?" and "i've never heard of that name before". come on, seriously, it's very imature, and totally unoriginal. i expect that you'll do the same to my comment, but then that comes to show me who you really are.

i have attended mosaic in the past, and have continued for a period of time. i'm no longer there simply because i'm out of the socal area. i have met some of the best people in my life at mosaic, and thanks to them, i am who i am today.

every church that i have visited, knows about mosaic. their influence in doubtedly amoungst the greatest of the modern church today. you can agree or disagree with that, or make another stupid comment about it. it seems that's what you are really good at. (i'm sure you are much more mature person than some of your postings make you out to be)

i'm not a hufe fan of the dancing and art as a form of worship, however, i do not bash the church. i don't know erwin personally too well, but i have seen many come to Christ at mosaic. there are people seeking God there and He is there, no matter what you say or post.

as a brother to many of those in mosaic, it pains me to see the war that is going on at the moment between those who are a part of "mosaic of pain" and those who call mosaic home.

when it comes down to it, Ruben. what YOU done that has the impact of things done by oprah, or larry king? nothing, in the eyes of the world, but i know that you are important andloved in the eyes of those around you. you impact and influence that is greater than that of any celebrity. your family and friends will choose you over any celebrity any day, i'm sure you know that without me telling you. so from that, i ask that you not take that same trust, love, and influence away from those who are mentioned by "anoymous" posters on this site. no more comments like "i've never heard of him before". who cares, this isn't about you. i'm sure you know that as well.

you know, i just thought of something. those of you who are posting as anonymous, i bet you ALL KNOW EACH OTHER! you are bicker and complain about who should happen but you never unify to actually do something about it. you are weak. i bet that if you all started using your real names, change would happen. not just silly postings that are only read and talked about on this site. is this the extent of what your Christianity is all about? it's pathetic. if you want real change to happen, you first need to be real, yourself. enough with silly games and start living the life that you all dream and preach about!

and for those who you who figure out who i am, and you have something to say. find me and say it. and if you decide to email me, give me a name and face so i know you got the gonads to face me as a real person

Anonymous said...

LOL!!!

comments have to be "approved"???

i see, so, you screen out and decide what you want people to see.

i dare you to post my comment and this one as well. let the people visiting this site you have nothing to hide. let them know you are witting and silly comments can combat anything. but if you decide to get serious with it, i'll know you are real when i revisit this page in a few days and see both of my comments posted.

like i said, i have nothing to hide. and if you don't either, i don't see a problem with either one of my comments. you know my name, if there is a problem, you how to find me.

Resolution said...

Dear ryky,

I actually do not know who you are, just the same God's speed. Anyway, I would ask that you read the posts with our names attached, I agree many of the anonymous posts are not that serious, however the ones with names signed are very serious.

Eddie Marshall

Anonymous said...

ryky,

Comments have to be approved to keep disrespectful comments from being posted...not because MOP does not allow opposing views...looks like you need to do some reading of this blog before commenting yourself. You're looking a bit foolish.

Anonymous said...

ryky'
I wasn't sure if you got it, but Ruben's article was tongue in cheek. I thought it was obvious. Do me a favor and read it again and then go read the other post on the other sites. It may be helpful. And I'm Jacob Aguilar, Who are you?
P.S As a brother in Christ I would ask you to refrain from some of your word choices. Look at your last sentence from your first post. Thank you for your time and God Bless

Mr. Aguilar said...

"i'm not very impressed by you simply naming a bunch of celebrity names like oprah, eminem, and such, anyone can make that argument that those names indeed will be names that people not only recognize, but they also have major influences on society."

The primary aim of Humana is to unleash creativity and imagination. Erwin McManus calls himself a "cultural architect." I thought about culture, imagination, and creativity and I came up with the top names in the world in that regard. Sorry you werent impressed. I was only trying to help.

all you can do in response to others comments are " say who?" "say what?" and "i've never heard of that name before". come on, seriously, it's very imature, and totally unoriginal. i expect that you'll do the same to my comment, but then that comes to show me who you really are.

I am afraid I am going to have to make a disclosure I was hoping I wouldnt have to make. My post was mostly satire. The comments I posted were made up. I am "EdfromBocaRaton" and "Jen", etc. When I wrote, "who is Pastor Phil Stein? I've never heard of him" it was a parody of what Erwin himself is doing to churches and pastors that don't fit his ideal of church. He has spoken of churches that are "irrelevant" "domesticated" and "conformist." What he has done to the Church on Brady is even worse. Read my post Print the Legend.


"every church that i have visited, knows about mosaic. their influence in doubtedly amoungst the greatest of the modern church today. you can agree or disagree with that, or make another stupid comment about it.

I agree with you that Mosaic is the most influential modern church today. This is precisely why I started this blog. I hope you dont find my response to your point too "stupid."

"i have met some of the best people in my life at mosaic, and thanks to them, i am who i am today."

Without the Church on Brady, there would be no Mosaic. People like Yvonne Martinez and the MOP site are trying to preserve its legacy.
Get up to speed on this point because it was one of the ugliest, most disturbing sides of Mosaic.

"when it comes down to it, Ruben. what YOU done that has the impact of things done by oprah, or larry king? nothing"

We agree. Nothing. But I am not the one calling myself a "cultural architect."

"for those who you who figure out who i am, and you have something to say. find me and say it. and if you decide to email me, give me a name and face so i know you got the gonads to face me as a real person."

You need to do your homework when you come into this forum. You sound arrogant and foolish. It's one thing to disagree. Fine. We disagree. But don't come here with your screenname "ryky" and talk of "gonads." I have been posting here since January, posting my FULL NAME and when the Myspace was running, my FACE was shown. Robbie Sortino has done the same, Cris Aguilar, Frank Loaiza, Yvonne Martinez and the list goes on. So far, we know you are "ryky." You have done a disservice to this forum and your own church by not researching this. It's a sensitive topic, for sure, but you have trivialized it.

Anonymous said...

Hey Ryky,
It kind of sounds like you blame Ruben for all of the anonymous comments. I do agree that it is a little frustrating that people don’t attach their names. I wish people would at least post a fake name that is consistent so the conversations wouldn't be so confusing. In the meantime why don’t you make comments relating to the posting where people did use their real name?

David Torres.

Resolution said...

I would like to make an observation at this point. Yes, MOP is making some very strong claims concerning Mosaic & Erwin, and there are emotions from both sides, but all too often the Mosaic side likes to "name-call". Have you noticed that? I'm sure an "anonymous" poster from the MOP side has probably let a name or two slip at times, but why are those from the "church" side the ones with the mouths? Robbie pointed this out a month or so ago. Yes, what we (MOP) are doing is uncomfortable, but we are not stooping to calling names. Doesn't this tell you something. Whether you are with MOP or Mosaic, doesn't it give you pause?

Eddie Marshall

Sonia:) said...

Ruben! You got me! I was actually going to post that JerrydeCovina is proving your point...:)
Good one...Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Wait a minute there's no JerryDCovina? I think we played little league with him Ruben. And Eddie your correct again sir--No more potty mouths Mosaic. JA

Anonymous said...

"all too often the Mosaic side likes to "name-call". ... why are those from the "church" side the ones with the mouths?"

Like who? Carrie Arcos? Jimmy Duke? Eric Bryant? Laura Oronoz? Oh, I forgot -- they're the ones who posted emails asking you guys to get in touch with them. MOP are the ones who sent hundreds of unsolicited emails out to Mosaic's membership (a legal expert would kindly call this unsolicited spam) directing them to your website, engaged in sarcastic post after sarcastic post, formed a MySpace page that sent out additional unsolicited emails to current Mosaic members directing them to another angry website, emailed so-called "pastor-teachers" who regurgitate such comments on ultra-conservative talk radio programs, demanded the resignation of the lead pastor and most of the leadership team (by members who are a decade out from membership and who seem to enjoy picking at the scabs that refuse to heal, and seem to have their own pre-existing issues with Erwin -- Frank, I'm talking to you), refused to engage in any process that will not lead to said resignation, founded "book review" websites full of more snarky and often-unsubtantiated assertions, criticized Mosaic's use of buildings funds to *gasp* buy a building (and then complained when those members who asked for a refund got it), and now complains about Mosaic's influence (after first pooh-poohing it).

So you tell me who the one with the "mouths" are.

Anonymous said...

To Gal5:15,

Erwin, Finally you respond!

Actually, the mouths comment was specifically dealing with "name calling". Nobody here denies that MOP has been aggressive in getting out the statement that Mosaic has been abusive - a very strong assertion in deed. "Spam" is annoying, the e-mail contacts (all taken from PUBLIC web pages advertising the e-mail addresses) were quite a bit more intentional then spam.

By the way, Mosaic did not buy a building. It used money raised to purchase land and a building to pay off debt of another church.

Anonymous said...

"...(and then complained when those members who asked for a refund got it)"

Maybe everyone that has given to BTI should ask for their's back too.

Resolution said...

I created a blog (a month ago) that does not allow any name-calling, requires use of full name and does not allow derogatory comments (RESOLUTION). And I took Ryan's (of Mosaic) advice and sent an e-mail to all of the Mosaic leadership (Erwin, Eric, Elders, Janice, the Davids, etc...) inviting them there. None have responded to that invitation, even though there are eleven of us waiting there. I have posted my e-mail address and have never once been contacted. So, I'm not sure what the above comment is referring to?

Anonymous said...

"and now complains about Mosaic's influence (after first pooh-poohing it)."

There is no doubt that Mosaic is having influence. The concern is what they are saying with their "roll over anything, or anyone" un-Christlike approach to having that influence.

"People know I am willing to sacrifice and do whatever is necessary to be a significant voice and influence in Los Angeles and allow this to permeate across the world."

-- Erwin McManus interview with INFUZE --

Yvonne W. said...

NOLO
http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/Term/5C990D5C-3EF9-4EBF-AECB5C3C4C4F1462/alpha/S/

Legal Definition of Spam:

Internet slang for unsolicited bulk email, primarily unsolicited commercial email (UCE). Spam has been linked with fraudulent business schemes, chain letters, and offensive sexual and political messages.

The definitive word here is "commercial." ALL incoming email may be termed "unsolicited" if you did not specifically request such email including those sent by friends and relatives.

Yes, MOP sent out "unsolicited" emails but these were not "commercial" in nature; MOP does not "sell or advertise" any products or services for profit. MOP is not trying to lure anyone into a "fraudulent business scheme," nor is it a "chain letter." It is certainly NOT espousing any "offensive sexual or political messages!"

Gal 5:15 wrote:

...a legal expert would kindly call this unsolicited spam, directing them to your website...

Did you in fact speak to such an "expert" before posting this? What I find far more distressing than MOP's use of Mosaic's email list is the fact that Mosaic would expose it's members to such a risk in the first place. Tell me, did the people on that list authorize Mosaic to make their personal information available to the general public? Would these members have given their email addresses had they known of Mosaic's intentions? Shouldn't Mosaic have known better than to post it's email list on an unsecured site?

For the record: I do not approve of MOP's use of Mosaic's email list in this way on the grounds that I find such tactics distasteful, HOWEVER; I felt I had to respond to what appears to be yet another attempt to use legal intimidation against MOP's right to exercise their First Ammendment freedom.

Yvonne

Anonymous said...

You think this type of situation might have been why the Forefathers created a separation of church and state?

Anonymous said...

You think this type of situation might have been why the Forefathers created a separation of church and state?

Esplain

Anonymous said...

Can you imagine if the church today could use the government to shut down the questioning of it's leaders by a group like MOP. This would probably be a much different situation. Thank God (Hey, maybe He is involved in all of this!?) for the 1st Amendment and a separation of church and state. After all, isn't that ideal what got this country started in the first place?

Splained!

Anonymous said...

As far as myspace goes, someone must approve for someone else to become their friends. MOP myspace has not sent any private messages to any other myspace members, only friend request.

Anonymous said...

Yvonne:

Your kind definition of spam: "Internet slang for unsolicited bulk email, primarily unsolicited commercial email (UCE)."

The emphasis here is "primarily." (As in, "not exclusively.") MOP's unsolicited bulk emails, promoting its website, were spam. Period. End of story.

"Tell me, did the people on that list authorize Mosaic to make their personal information available to the general public?"

So wait -- MOP assembles a list of names and email addresses (I presume culled from the small groups webpage, specifically built so visitors and members can get information on Bible studies), spams it, then blames Mosaic for its existence? Kind of like an alcoholic blaming the bar for being on the way home, isn't it? (Or posting angry lists of demands targeting a pastor and then calling him a bully.)

"I felt I had to respond to what appears to be yet another attempt to use legal intimidation against MOP's right to exercise their First Ammendment freedom."

This has nothing to do with First Amendment rights. You guys were in the wrong and you know it. Your refusal to admit it shows how far you've come.

Anonymous said...

MOSAIC,

If you do not want e-mail addresses accessed from your public web site, do not put them up their - that is what PUBLIC means.

Free speech happens in the PUBLIC.

Yvonne W. said...

Gal. 5:15

That is not "my" definition, it is NOLO's definition. NOLO is a highly respected, on-line, LEGAL resource site. It was not the only site I consulted when looking for a definition of spam, I felt it had the best, most concise and easiest to understand definition. I thought the reputation of this site would be self-evident to anyone who followed the actual link.

According to all of the definitions I read, what MOP did was not spam because:

(1)The emails were not generated using an automated system but entered one at a time by hand.

(2) There was no intent to advertise, defraud, or offend the recipient. The emails were sent out for informational purposes.

So wait -- MOP assembles a list of names and email addresses (I presume culled from the small groups webpage, specifically built so visitors and members can get information on Bible studies

Wrong. MOP didn't "assemble" anything, MOSAIC did. MOSAIC then posted this list on an unsecured website where it was visible to anyone. By doing this, MOSAIC has left it's members vulnerable to real spammers.

Your analogy comparing MOP to an alcoholic is not only offensive but illogical.

This has nothing to do with First Amendment rights. You guys were in the wrong and you know it. Your refusal to admit it shows how far you've come.

Gal. 5:15,

This has EVERYTHING to do with First Amendment Rights. You have a right to your opinion and so far Ruben and Chris have been gracious enough to allow you to fully express your displeasure without censure. I also, expressed my displeasure with the way the email list was used; I felt it was wrong on moral grounds,not legal. Apparently whoever sent out the emails felt it was justified.

In the United States, everyone is entitled to express their own opinion; even the people we disagree with.

Yvonne

Anonymous said...

Good show Yvonne--Cool and collected and obviously a gifted writer and thinker. Gal 5:15 do you have any questions for your leaders or are you going to continue with these rants? We've brought out a lot of issues on these blogs, and are you telling us none of these issues are of concerned to you? Troubling

Unknown said...

Gal 5:15,(Re: March 31,07 Comments)
Thanks for your comments. Would you like to meet with me in person?
I am willing to meet with you to discuss my issues regarding MOSAIC and Erwin. I have ALWAYS been willing to meet with any MOSAIC people, in-fact I was supposed to meet with Eric Bryant once.... and then he cancelled, and we never got to meet. Here is my e-mail if you would like to have a real conversation: frankloaiza@gmail.com

I am open to discussing these issues face-to-face with any leader from MOSAIC, I have taken the inititaive to meet with certain people, to no avail.

My "Scabs", as you call them,have healed, thanks to God, and I have forgiven Erwin. Scars remain, as a reminder of what we as mortal men can do to each other. I want to prevent others from being hurt by Erwin's style of leadership. That's why I am here. These blogs have also made me realize that I was not alone with my experience with Erwin.

Thanks, I hope to hear from you soon.

-Frank Loaiza

Anonymous said...

So, what did you hear?

Anonymous said...

As in Frank, how many e-mail requests did you receive to talk?

Unknown said...

I have not received any e-mails or phone calls from any MOSAIC members or leaders. I have e-mailed Erwin a couple of times, (and I know he has read my e-mails), he has yet to respond.
I'm still willing to meet with Eric Bryant as well....

-Frank Loaiza

tsimoncini said...

Ruben,
You crack me up, you say that Erwin Mcmanus isn't effecting culture, and Howard Stern is. I agree with you on the general point that Stern touches more people. But I can assure you if Erwin was given a contract for millions to be on Sirius radio he would take it in a hear-beat. Howard Stern has his platform becuase of the filth he spreads and our moral decline in this country, and only because of that! Mcmanus uses his platofrm well, and that platofrm is growing daily! So you are the critic of the chrisitan community and its efforts to effect change in our culture, why? As you have asked earlier, how are you changing culture on a more broad scale than say Erwin Mcmanus. If he touches the generous 10,000 people weekly as you say, tell me how your doing better?
And if your a follower of Christ you would be trying to figure out a way to catapult his platform and not try to cut it down! If you are a follower of Christ, please do better to follow Christs example. Jesus started with 12 people in his circle of influence, and that influence grew over a 3 year period. But even after 3 years there were more people hwo wanted to kill him than hear his teachings. But look at the world now! The biblival rule is change yourself, thos earound you, and together with God's help we WILL influence change in our culture for God's glory!
Other than that your comments are laughable, hahahaha!
Peace Out,
Tony

Mr. Aguilar said...

"So you are the critic of the chrisitan community and its efforts to effect change in our culture, why?"

Excuse me, have you followed Erwin McManus's career lately at all? If you have, you would see a man who regularly criticizes the Christian community with derisives comments such as "conformists", "laggards" and "stuck in a 70's groove." Did you know he said some of these comments about the very church that invited him to pastor their church? Does that bother you? Does it bother you that he publicly criticized Christian minister John McArthur? Did you call Mr McManus on that?

" As you have asked earlier, how are you changing culture on a more broad scale than say Erwin Mcmanus. If he touches the generous 10,000 people weekly as you say, tell me how your doing better?"

I dont touch many people. But then again, i dont call myself "cultural architect."

"And if your a follower of Christ you would be trying to figure out a way to catapult his platform and not try to cut it down!"

Erwin doesnt like Christians. I will try to cut down the platform of anyone who says they dont like Christians. Sorry if that offends you.

"But even after 3 years there were more people hwo wanted to kill him than hear his teachings. But look at the world now! The biblival rule is change yourself, thos earound you, and together with God's help we WILL influence change in our culture for God's glory!"

The Christian teachings you are referring dont apply to Mosaic. Their show, "Crave," didnt refer to Jesus. But there sure were lots of references to the word "crave" and "soul" according to people who attended the show. Same goes for his books. I have read all his books and can attest to that. So you would do well to go back to the Bible and test Mosaic's teachings with it. And you will find that Mosaic is woefully lacking.

"Other than that your comments are laughable, hahahaha!"

Thanks