Friday, June 15, 2007

The Pot Calls the Kettle Black

This is response to the recent on-line article written by Erwin McManus: http://www.thecronline.com/mag_article.php?mid=1016&mname=June

"I was online the other day and up popped a web site that went into detail about how I am a heretic and Mosaic is a danger to the Christian faith. Honestly in the past this would have brought me great pain but this time I could only laugh." --Erwin McManus

"Tell the truth, but tell it slant." ---Emily Dickinson

Something happens to Erwin McManus when he defends himself. He writes in clear and thoughtful detail. Absent is all that mind-numbing talk of cravings, barbarians, relevance, slow adopters, futurists, architects, etc. You read his latest on-line article and you breathe a sigh of relief that he has avoided all the jargon that only serves to confuse. It is easily the best thing he has ever written. I think you will also find that the information he has given is incomplete. Is he referring to the Mosaic of Pain blog when he writes that he "could only laugh" at it? If so, he did not laugh but got very angry, according to one witness. In addition, he found the blogger so funny that he encouraged some on his staff to make a special trip to his house to encourage him to shut it down. When that didn’t work, he called the cops on him. I suppose a sense of humor goes only so far. Perhaps I am just speculating and he isn't referring to Mosaic of Pain at all but some other blog that considers Mosaic a "danger to the Christian faith."
He also writes that these are Mosaic's 5 Core Convictions:
1) The Scriptures are God’s authoritative word to us.
2) Jesus is the only way through which we come to God.
3) The local church is God’s agent for redemptive change.
4) Every believer is called and gifted to serve the body and seek the lost.
5) Our call is to all the world.

But many of us know that the real convictions that they hold dear are these:
1) Mission is why the church exists
2) Love is the context for all mission
3) Structure must submit to spirit
4) Relevance to culture is not optional
5) Creativity is the natural result of spirituality

Why does Erwin bother to print any convictions at all? Is it because he forced a long-time member to drop her mission trip when she raised objections to the five core values? I know this member well and I am confident that she opposed the five latter values posted here rather than the five former ones. Only the die-hard, true-blue, completely committed Mosaic believers accept the "relevance to culture is not optional" mantra. When I was there, few of the more biblically grounded members quoted it and fewer still seemed to believe it. Values like "structure must submit to spirit" and "creativity is the natural result of spirituality" are so ambiguous that they fail to resonate with biblically sound members. Which structure is being referred to here, and which spirit? What if someone opposed an idea being bandied about the church from a biblically based structure? Does that member must now concede that structure must submit to spirit and be quiet? Similarly, if creativity is the natural result of spirituality, can Anthony Kiedis of the Red Hot Chili Peppers be considered spiritual? Substitute Oliver Stone into my question, or Steven Spielberg, Marilyn Manson, Eminem, or anyone you find creative. This kind of confusion is inevitable whenever you replace Jesus with a man-centered theology. "Structure must submit to spirit" is a lot less definitive than "I am the way, the truth and the life."

The Pot Calls the Kettle Black
Those who have been harmed by this church sense an irony over the core conviction that "Love is the context for all mission." All churches go through their share of members leaving over a hurt or perceived hurt. Unfortunately, the Church is filled with sinful people, saved but sinful. There will always be some amount of pain and ideally reconciliation is the goal when this occurs. But it is astonishing to see the many great leaders who have been left bleeding at the altar of Mosaic. If this church is considered "special" or "different," recognize that one of its defining qualities is that it has crushed so many. Even if you subscribe to the idea that this is collateral damage or that men of God often "disagree," why hasn’t Erwin McManus done more to reconcile with the dozens of leaders, both on paid staff or lay people? All he has done is bring more pain to his own flock by not even attempting to make things right. Scroll through his recent article and you come across this gem: "Why is it then we who are supposed to be known as His disciples by our love for one another keep shooting our own?" Yes, why indeed? Why does McManus feel the need to shoot down John McArthur? Why does he shoot down the church on Brady and allow the revisionist of its history to fluorish? Why does he shoot down the Christian church by saying it is filled with conformists? Why did he shoot down a pastor and his family by firing him after twenty-five years of service? Why has he sacked multiple staff members and kept his church in the dark about it? For a man criticizing the way the Church shoots his own, he sure seems locked and loaded himself. I say this with all due respect: someone is in need of a mirror.

23 comments:

Ron said...

Dear Ruben,

Erwin might also be referring to www.apprising.org. Ken Silva has an entire section devoted to Erwin McManus. Also, I have written an article about a recent sermon by Erwin which I posted at this link:
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2137/Ron_Foster

Also, you're right about Erwin's response. Those core values he mentioned in the article - I never heard them once in my seven years at Mosaic. But I do remember sermon series after series devoted to "Mission is why the Church exists." I am planning, God willing, a series of articles on Mosaic's real core values and how they line up with the Bible, so stay tuned.

Blessings,
Ron Foster

Anonymous said...

Ruben,
You make some excellent points. I'm glad your still on the job of keeping us informed about the error filled teachings of McManus and Mosaic. Keep up the good work!!

Anonymous said...

Hey Ruben
I think Erwin was refering to the Brandon Howse article about He and Alex. At least that is what I heard. As far as MOP goes, I think about 60% of the congregation knows about the MOP website. The ones that know usually find out from someone through lifegroup. A lot of people who attend Mosaic on a Sunday are from other churches, out of towners, or college kids finding a place to crash before they move back home to their "real church" so they are totaly unaware. EVERYONE on paid staff knows about the site and many follow it regularly. Erwin is very much aware but will never acknowledge the site publicly. The only way Erwin will ever acknowledge this site is God and Erwin's humility. Or, God humbling Erwin, whichever comes first. Erwin admits that he struggles with humility and it looks like he keeps on struggling. I notice that this is a common struggle for many pastors. Anyways, it's just sad to me that when someone leaves Mosaic, it's with a bad taste in their mouth and leadership doesn't care because they say the person probably didn't get it in the first place. We constantly call and compare ourselves to the first century church where God added to their numbers daily and the church prospered. What we seem to forget is that people were drawn to that church because they could see the genuine love that the church had for their own. Fellow Mosaic people, go back and re-read Acts chapter 2 and reflect on the current state of our church. Are we really like the 1st century church? At my church Mosaic, if you are a non-believer, you are "loved". But once you profess to being a believer, your primary purpose was to bring in others. i have seen lifegroups dismantled because they were not growing in numbers (ie gerardo marti days). If we are to love, shouldn't we love our own first like the early church did and through our faithfulness, God adds to our numbers? I stay at Mosaic because I see glimpses of hope. I see what mosaic could be if we focused more on our own humility. Afterall, God gives grace to the humble.

p.s. I strongly invite everyone at MOP, Mosaic, and anyone with at least one good eye to read John Piper's Desiring God. It will change your outlook on many things.

DJ

Anonymous said...

Ruben,

Looks like you struck a chord with this one...the others too, but this article hits some very important points.

DJ, Thank you for your honest look at your experience at Mosaic. Having been a long term member of both COB and Mosaic I will honestly say Brady struggled with not loving the member as much as the lost visitor, also. This is probably a challenge for many churches, however Mosaic has seemed to focus more on the outsider at the expense of the member.

Eddie Marshall

Anonymous said...

Thanks Ruben for reminding me that Erwin was so yesterday.

Unknown said...

Nice! Thanks for keeping an eye on Truth. Good article.
Godspeed,
Frank Loaiza

Anonymous said...

"Thanks Ruben for reminding me that Erwin was so yesterday."

Sorry, I must disagree. How about LAST MONTH!

Poser Deluxe

Anonymous said...

I a little confused. Erwin first said he was emergent and then he wasn't. And then in this article he says; "By the way many, of the emerging leaders have been around for decades. They have already emerged. It just seems to take us a long time to recognize when God is doing a new thing. We should not confuse being popular with being effective." So is he emergent again? We're so lucky that God has picked us to do a new thing. JA

Anonymous said...

Erwin has not claimed to be emergent to my knowledge. I know he has used the term experimental, but not emergent.

Anonymous said...

anonymous,
Tomatoe - Tomato, Emergent - Experimental let's call the whole thing off. Simple solution ask him. Don't be discouraged if you have to see 5 people before seeing him.(Bring secret mystic decipher book)--MOP member

disgusted observer said...

Was there another Mosaic existing before the Church on Brady changed their name to Mosaic about ten years ago? Erwin said in his article that Mosaic has been around for 60 years. Can someone clarify this?

Anonymous said...

I beleive Robbie Sortino came up witht the name a number of years ago and Erwin took it as his own-great surprise. And the current Mosaic was the first one to enter the mystic

Anonymous said...

hey Ruben,
Have you had a chance to read "Peppermint-Filled Piñatas”. Or is that part of your summer reading?

Anonymous said...

Yeah, second that! Would love to see a review of PFP.

Mr. Aguilar said...

"hey Ruben,
Have you had a chance to read "Peppermint-Filled Piñatas”. Or is that part of your summer reading?"

I am working on reviewing An Unstoppable Force but havent decided if I should review Peppermint Filled Pinatas. I wonder if anyone who posts here has read it, yet.

Anonymous said...

i'm "glad" you former M and COB people have left the baptist tradition. it used to be "back in the day" we thought of our pastors as the "Lord's anointed". and while erwin may have faults, even ugly ones, he is the "Lord's anointed" pastor for M. it is here that i submit for your consideration the account of david and saul. no doubt many of you here and at the MOP site see great similarities with erwin and saul. ego-driven, dictator/king, running off of what is good ... these are some of the themes you have spoken of. you may recall david in 1 sam. 24.6? samuel had already anointed david, and david was told his enemy would be handed over to him. david would be king. saul was on his way out (at least according to God through samuel). david had the chance to play out God's plan in the cave and kill saul. (maybe some of you would like to fire erwin's butt and get on with it ... i sense this is your desire from your writings) anyway, please recall david's words, "the Lord forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the Lord's annointed, or lift my hand against him; for he is anointed of the Lord." maybe erwin is evil, even as evil as saul (hard to imagine) ... but maybe we (and by we i mean you) should relax, have a pickle and not lift a hand (or key stroke) against the Lord's anointed. -gw

ps will you publish this? i wonder

MOPmember said...

Very interesting how every one of the "I wonder if you will publish this?" peeps never come back and say, "Wow, you guys are wanting to hear from all sides, you published it!" lol

Actually, probably the Saul comparison is a bit more in parallel with how so many of Erwin's people know he has problems, but prefer to sweep it all under the carpet and move on. Much like the above Anonymous poster.

By the way, Saul was NOT God's anointed, David was...Paul was a concession because God's people wanted a human King.

Yvonne W. said...

Anonymous,

I have already addressed the "touch not thine anointed" defense in the comments section of the Mosaic of Pain website. It is a common defense often employed by those involved in spiritual abuse situations. (For an excellent commentary on this subject, please see: http://www.geocities.com/balancedword/cont/tnta.html)

You can find my remarks near the end of page 5 and continuing on to page 6 of the MOP comments at:

http://mosaicofpaincontinues.blogspot.com/2007/04/mop-comments-page-5.html

Yvonne W.

Mr. Aguilar said...

"ps will you publish this? i wonder"

Perhaps you have confused us with Mosaic. After all, Mosaic is in the business of non-disclosure. Not MOP. Mosaic is uncomfortable with opinions contrary to their own and they will do all to omit, disregard, and ignore them. Remember, we post everything, pro and con. Case in point: I was having lunch three weeks ago with a life group leader of Mosaic. I had to tell her about Robert Martinez leaving the church. I dont even go to Mosaic and I knew more about the situation than this leader. She was very surprised. I also had to fill her in on other leaders that had suddenly disappeared around the church. It is one thing to treat your leaders of the church as disposables. But to not tell your life group leaders what is going on is just rude. And you, GW, have the temerity to come here and write "will you publish this?" Very strange. If you are posting with complete conviction and seriousness, I have a feeling you cannot be completely comfortable with what is going on at Mosaic right now.

Anonymous said...

first, thank you for publishing, i just felt a very heavy heart as i was writing for reasons on both sides of this discussion.

while the people did want a king, God did tell samuel to anoint him. (1 sam. 9.16,10.1) basic baptist sunday school material... come one, you have to conceed that one.

i can appreciate when you say you have "addressed" my comments. i just disagree with you. this is coming from seeing a lot of abuse, in a lot of areas in the church. i respect your words and thoughts on this matter, but i must respectfully disagree. (your dad is a good man and i'm sure the pain was bone cutting... sorry)

i do write in complete seriousness, however, yes, i am open to hear/read your words/thoughts. i am not comfortable with everything i see at M or MOP. i don't know (if it were up to me) that i would be comfortable with much i see in american christianity today. i do want you to know that i can see/feel where the pain and source of the pain comes from. i just write regretfully. i remember the first time my parents fought, it was hard to process. this too is hard to process. i believe that the church is still a very Spiritual venue and discussing the ugliness of the business feels (well, makes me feel) dirty.

when i read things like "above all, love each other deeply, because love covers a multitude of sins" (1 Pet.4.8) i get a lump in my throat, a pain in my chest. i wonder if this is just a cross-stitched pithy statement christians hang on their walls. it causes me to wonder ... have i loved MOP deeply enough? have i loved you, ruben, enough? have i loved yvonne enough? have i loved COB/M enough? have i loved erwin enough? -gw

Trent said...

Troubled...

I think that is what I want to say. I am troubled. Is McManus so dangerous that he needs to be slammed so hard?

Is he doing anything worthwhile at all? Are any of the things that he is doing for the culture he finds himself in working?

Seriously, I don't know. I stumbled on this site very early in my search.

Anonymous said...

Trent,
Don't be troubled...
Is McManus so dangerous that he needs to be slammed so hard?

Erwin is dangerous when it comes to theology, handling of staff and church finances. Very dangerous.

Is he doing anything worthwhile at all?
He wrote some books and is a speaker in demand. Keeping busy.

Are any of the things that he is doing for the culture he finds himself in working?

Question a little confusing, but I think your trying to say is if Erwin is having an influence on America and the church's culture. One of Erwin's stated goals is to change culture. He would like to change it to the "me" philosophy of the emergent church. I encourage you to read up on this movement and take a look at aspiring ministries, the lighthouse and of course MOP. A lot has been written about this movement and this well meaning, but "dangerous" for the "church" man.

Anonymous said...

P.S. Who does Erwin think he is to think that he could change culture. The arrogance of it all...mop member