Tuesday, August 7, 2007

Tartuffe

"Let another praise you and not your own mouth." ---Proverbs 27:2

"God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." James 4:6

About five years ago, a friend recommended I read the play "Tartuffe." He felt it had certain parallels with the church I had been attending at the time. I read it and he was right. Herein is my review of the play.

“Tartuffe” is a story of betrayal and injustice on a grand scale. That it is a comedy, and a funny one at that, is ironic but makes the play more palatable in light of its severely flawed main character. The amount of savagery and heartbreak a single person can wreak is remarkable and is at the core of this play. Tartuffe wears a cloak of religious spirituality which only makes his cunning more effective. This man "wishes from pure charity to take everything away from you which might become an obstacle for your salvation." And he takes and he takes and he takes: spiritual manipulation, subtle seductions through clever words to win people, and a coup to take over a kingdom are all part of his scheme. Tartuffe never seems to tire of wrongdoing. This play shows the damage done to a family by this one-man wrecking crew. It also reveals the folly of ignoring sound advice and how easy it is to deceive people if your manipulations are couched in spiritual words.
This play by Moliere is the story of a pitiless, penniless scoundrel taken in by a wealthy family man named Orgon. The main character doesn’t show until act three but his mark already had been made. One by one Orgon’s family comes in and warns him about Tartuffe: his wife, son, daughter, and brother-in-law. But does he listen? They recount a catalogue of misdeeds by Tartuffe: the bombastic announcing of his own righteous acts, the way he sneers at so many who are not as holy and sacrificial as he, his constant scheming for more power. Orgon ignores it. His daughter, who refuses Orgon’s demand that she marry Tartuffe, complains of him: "whosoever embraces the innocence of a holy life should not boast so much about his name and lineage and the humble ways of worship do not agree with his outburst of ambition." Orgon sneers and reminds her that Tartuffe is "well known" and a "nobleman." Cleante, Orgon’s brother in law, speaks of Tartuffe as a "pretended zealot" who "possesses an unusual love for this world only to make a fortune in this one." Orgon laughs it off and tells him that Tartuffe has a higher mindset and that he is "spiritual" and "not of this world." A spirituality of this kind, one that glorifies the riches of this world while making a show for the "love for the next world," seems familiar. In the spiritual fog of our current times, we see example after example of this. We know of a pastor in the church today who seems mesmerized by the false glare of having a life "God dreamed for you" and one that is driven by an "unleashed faith." There is little talk about denying our passions that run counter to the message of Christ. On the contrary, the passions of humanity affirm only good things and continually seek God, according to this deluded pastor. This is Tartuffe reborn: a rejection of the humble worship of God and a coveting of worldly ambition. There is plenty of haughty talk from this pastor about a Christianity that is a "crash" and that is so strong it seems "uncivilized,” but it, in fact, is the tamest form of Christianity around. Instead of a faith that demands us to humbly serve the Holy One we get a tepid Christianity that asks us: "What’s best for you?"
Despite the warnings and protests of his family, Orgon falls prey to Tartuffe’s charms and brings him into his home. When the hen invites the fox into the chicken coop is there any hope for the hen? The hen can only hope that the fox will eat him last. In an act of comical indecency, Tartuffe attempts to steal Orgon’s entire estate from under his nose. Of course, he does this with formality and with a kind of false kindness that is his signature. Tartuffe cowardly sends an intermediary with a message: "I shall take care not to disturb your rest, and to permit nothing which is not right. By tomorrow you must be ready to clear the house of even the slightest utensil." When Orgon kicks up a cry of protest, Tartuffe hires armed guards to chase him away and is determined to turn his family against him. Orgon’s reply is strong, if not late: "this is the stroke, villain, by which you dispatch me and which crowns all your treacheries." How could Tartuffe be so insensitive and ungrateful as to send away the very person who invited him there in the first place? Talk about a parallel to our current crisis! There is a pastor who dismissed from his church the very two people who invited and welcomed him in. Thank you for bringing me into your home. Now leave. This coup by Tartuffe can be useful when examined as a symbol in what is going on among evangelicals today. This pastor and other church leaders have attempted to take over the Church through a hollow and secular philosophy. There has been warning after warning about a takeover of leaders inhospitable to the message of Christ. But will the Church listen?
For all its strengths as a lesson of the damage done by hypocrisy, "Tartuffe" also serves as a warning of how the charisma of one man can tantalize and destroy. All Tartuffe, or anyone for that matter, has to do is put a spiritual flair on their bankrupt ideas and they’ll win people over. A passionate individual before an uncritical audience is a combustible mix. This is especially a problem when the individual states that he doesn’t build his life according to God’s word. Contrast this to the scriptures, which clearly tell us to "study to show yourselves approved." We have already seen doctrinal abuse, relativism, mysticism, and Gnosticism readily accepted into mainstream churches. How did this happen? Here’s an experiment: Simply decorate ancient paganism with a "Christ follower" banner and thousands may follow you, too. Like Tartuffe, many leaders in the church today want to "take everything away from you which will be an obstacle to your salvation." And if that includes your salvation, too, well, so be it.

71 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well done Ruben. Its true that there are many Tartuffe's out there. EM is just one of them. Christians or Christ Followers whatever you want to call yourselves. There is a spiritual war going on here. Make sure you know and understand which side your on. I wouldn't get caught being seen in the Mystic, ya know?
Mopster

MOPmember said...

Wow! It never ceases to amaze me how history chooses to repeat itself when man refuses to learn her lessons.

Brilliant job RubeDawg!

Anonymous said...

Truth be stranger than fiction.

Anonymous said...

Well written and well thought out. Maybe this writing thing will stick. Good job Rube. JA

Anonymous said...

Far too similar. It's a nasty world we live in.

Anonymous said...

Ruben, if you really think that Erwin is "tartuffing" people, wouldn't the proper way to deal with him be to go to him and confront him personally?

Anonymous said...

"Ruben, if you really think that Erwin is "tartuffing" people, wouldn't the proper way to deal with him be to go to him and confront him personally?"

Yeah, Ruben, just go to Erwin and talk to him! LOL....

Anonymous said...

"Ruben, if you really think that Erwin is "tartuffing" people, wouldn't the proper way to deal with him be to go to him and confront him personally?"

Yeah, Ruben, just go to Erwin and talk to him! LOL....

P.S. When you get that "talk" please let him know that the more than 20 of us who have left messages, sent e-mails, etc...are awaiting a reply! : 0

Anonymous said...

I have to think the comment about approaching Erwin must be a joke. If not, please take a moment to pull your head out of the sand and look at reality. He is unapproachable. He is not accessible. Many have tried to contact him in various of ways.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the above person is not aware of the issues. An interesting article that discusses part of this is written by Ron Foster and may help:

A Letter To A Sister In Christ At Mosaic

Anonymous said...

Hey Rubie,

Have you tried to speak with Erwin about your "issues" recently?

Anonymous said...

"Hey Rubie,

Have you tried to speak with Erwin about your "issues" recently?"


Would it matter? Are you asking Ruben this because you want to know, curious, or a Red Herring?

Has Erwin put out a notice, or something, that he has a new policy concerning his "firewall" of protection when it comes to those who have problems with his behavior?

Because if he has I will try again, as will many others.

em

P.S. No response to this comment will suggest "red herring".

Anonymous said...

EM,

Your cute! Nobody is talkin' to you.

Rubie,

If you want to actually do some good, talk to the man face to face. Don't knock it til you tried it.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous,

Before you make your sweeping bold comments about "talking" to Erwin McManus, maybe you should read a bit more concerning this issue. Your ignorance is showing.

And if you want to talk exclusively to Ruben, then do so in a private forum, anyone here can reply to your red herrings, otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Hey Annonymous,
Why don't you try to kill us with kindness, it goes a long way here. Why don't you ask Erwin why he doesn't want to talk to us. He has pawned us off to Eric and the other elders. I could only guess that we have hit a nerve. YOu see he'll have to deal with the truth if he talks to us. He'll have to answer for his actions. He's hurt a lot of people. It would be great to make things right with Erwin. Have him call us. NOw what will you do when he shruggs you off? You can join us--Numbers growing daily. A MOP member

Anonymous said...

I don't respond much until someone gets my goat and you anonymous have. Your nasty words and attitude show the lack of fruit in your life. You, dear, sounded like a child, spiritually and physically. Your "nobody's talking to you" to eddie was nauseating. When you post here others (who are obviously more informed than you) are going to respond (duh!) You want to talk to Ruben, then email him. (But I don't know - Do you think everyone is blowing hot air when they say they have tried to talk to Erwin? The ball is now in his court. Until then this site lives on.)


...Kimberly Aguilar

Anonymous said...

Are Ruben and Cris Aguilar related?

Anonymous said...

"Are Ruben and Cris Aguilar related?"

Yes, they are brothers.

Anonymous said...

Lil' Kim...sorry to get your goat...if Rubie really wants to see change, he should speak with Erwin face to face...wouldn't you want the same?

Ruben said...

“EM,

Your cute! Nobody is talkin' to you.

Rubie,

If you want to actually do some good, talk to the man face to face. Don't knock it til you tried it.”

You seem to believe that I have not directly approached Erwin. Have you approached Erwin or me to get the truth or you relying on your own assumptions? I have, in fact, approached Erwin. I found myself more than once in his office, a fact Erwin himself knows full well. The statement “Talk to the man face to face” shows that you probably don’t go to Mosaic, as I did for many years. (And the condescending comment “Li’l Kim” and “Eddie, you’re cute” we’ll leave for others to address more fully). He rarely takes meetings with anyone anymore. Do you not know that? But once upon a time he did bring me into his office and I told him some of my concerns. That didn’t seem to go anywhere and I eventually had to settle with talking to Gerardo Marti with my questions/concerns. (Remember Gerardo Marti? He used to go to Mosaic, too. What happened to him? Ah, I will leave that one for another day.) “If Rubie really wants to see change, he should speak with Erwin face to face.” And what change, dear sir or ma’am, could possibly happen now after all these years? You think yakking with Erwin is going to bring back Brother Tom, Carol, Robert Martinez, and so many others? You think a discussion over hot latte at Starbucks would undo the damage of that LA Times article that posted a revisionist history of the church that insulted the legacy of Bro. Tom? I am curious: what kind of change are you talking about?
I have several questions for you. Since the level of our relationship is so informal (not even my closest friends call me “Rubie”) what do you think of how Erwin dismissed Robert Martinez? Is it fair to dismiss someone and then say they “retired?” Here are some more: how do you feel about three different reporters who walked away from interviewing Erwin thinking that the “Church on Brady closed in 1998” and that “Erwin started a new service there” that year. Care to comment? Another: do you think the BTI campaign could have been handled better; does raising money to build a church in LA and then using that money for a sister church in Chino seem strange to you? I do hope you respond and you don’t fly the way of Tiffany, Mosaic of Love, and Ryan. So please try to answer some of these things that I have raised in my articles, but, if you must, fly, bird, fly.

Anonymous said...

"I do hope you respond and you don’t fly the way of Tiffany, Mosaic of Love, and Ryan."

Or, for that matter, Eric, Jimmy, Matt, and a few others...

Anonymous said...

Poor milk fed anonymous,

I find it interesting that you ask a question (not the first time asked, which says alot about your lack of research skills) that has been answered over and over and over and over again. How kind of Ruben to give your ignorance the benefit of the doubt and once again answer it. I'm thinking poor anonymous - He or she is so duped he or she can't see straight and is incapable of asking intelligent questions, because if he/she were interested in the truth he/she would have been questioning the very questionable practices of Mosaic and that of it's leader. Do your homework anonymous as one who seeks the truth would do. (For example, like those here at MOP and similar sights seek to do) What say you anonymous, can you meet that challenge like a true critical thinker?

...Kimberly Aguilar (sister-in-law to Cris and Ruben)
P.S. I too give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you seek the truth and not to antagonize.

P.S. I forgive your rude and childish comment "Lil Kim".

Anonymous said...

Go Kim!

Anonymous said...

"In Tartuffe, a comedy in five acts, Molière relates the story of an attempt, by an irreclaimable hypocrite, to destroy the domestic happiness of a citizen who, charmed by his seeming piety, has received him as a prominent guest."

Sound familiar?

(http://www.theatrehistory.com/
french/tartuffe001.html)

Anonymous said...

Rubie Tuesday,

I've done my best to answer your questions below.

You seem to believe that I have not directly approached Erwin. [I don't.]

Have you approached Erwin or me to get the truth or you relying on your own assumptions? [Yep.]

The statement “Talk to the man face to face” shows that you probably don’t go to Mosaic, as I did for many years. [Actually, longer than you Rubie!]

He rarely takes meetings with anyone anymore. [Actually, he takes meetings all day long. The man is never not in a meeting with someone about something.]

Remember Gerardo Marti? [Yep. Good friend.]

What happened to him? [Took a teaching position on the East Coast because he wanted to pursue his passions. Miss him dearly.]

And what change, dear sir or ma’am, could possibly happen now after all these years? [Great question...you tell me. You are the one who thinks change is necessary. Not me.]

You think yakking with Erwin is going to bring back Brother Tom, Carol, Robert Martinez, and so many others? [I hope not. Yikes! Bro. Tom was weird dude, and you had major problems with him too. You would complain about him all the time. All of you would.]

You think a discussion over hot latte at Starbucks would undo the damage of that LA Times article that posted a revisionist history of the church that insulted the legacy of Bro. Tom? [What damamge? No damage done. Don't be so dramatic, Rubes.]

What do you think of how Erwin dismissed Robert Martinez? [Probably should have been handled better...by both men! Robert had been going around telling people for years he was ready to retire. Some of what he was demanding from the church was flat out wrong and was borderline extortion. Erwin should have asked him to retire sooner.]

Is it fair to dismiss someone and then say they “retired?” [If its true, then yes. In this case, it was true.]

How do you feel about three different reporters who walked away from interviewing Erwin thinking that the “Church on Brady closed in 1998” and that “Erwin started a new service there” that year. [I feel great about it. Its true. What was the Church on Brady closed and what was Mosaic started.]

Do you think the BTI campaign could have been handled better? [Yes...that song by Dave Files was horrible! No offense to Dave :)]

Does raising money to build a church in LA and then using that money for a sister church in Chino seem strange to you? [No, because things change. Plans change. Chino became a part of Mosaic and needed help. It was money well spent. Thanks for your generous donations! The people at Mosaic Inland greatly appreciate it.]

but, if you must, fly, bird, fly. [Uhh...what does that even mean?]

Anonymous said...

Ahh, sweet Kimmie!

I believe I have upset you. Sorry about that.

But I ask the question because the so called answers ring false. The answer to the question why Ruben won't meet with Erwin face to face has never been answered truthfully.

Here's my question again: If it were you, wouldn't you want the person who had a problem with you, and that had taken offense with you to come to you and speak with you face to face about it? Wouldn't you want that person to be persistent in speaking with you?

Anonymous said...

Annonymous,
Since you've been at Mosaic for so long and have all the answers I can only assume your on leadership. I have personally emailed and called Erwin to set up an appointment, and he finally did answer me and refered me to Rick Y. Now, it was not an easy process, I had to hear the barrage of remarks spewed by Eric towards my brothers, and Erwin chose not to meet with me. Now since you continue to choose to be smug I hate to believe your on staff, but nothing surprises me anymore. I'll go ahead and meet with him today, he knows my email. But I won't go alone, because he won't be. So I'll bring along Eddie, Frank and or Ruben,probably will bring all those he hurt, need to rent a gym. And anonymous why don't you come out of your cover and reveal your identity. But by your comments I don't think your brave enough. I stand by mine,
Jacob Aguilar--Let's meet face to face--Ball on your guys court

P.S. Anyone reading out there will see how this team operates. Well by the comments by this individual you can see the depth of their leadership and spirituality. Shame

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

You said one thing right, Yes I am sweet. I can only guess by your hostile remarks about Tom Wolf and Carol that hearing the unfiltered word of God preached is too much to bear in this day and age of the "Christ follower"(Christian, yuk). I believe Tom and Carol have moved on and God is using them mightily across the globe. I had the blessed opportunity to hear Bro. Tom speak this last Sunday and was reminded once again that God's Word is so relevant to today. If we would just take the time to study every word - Take no word or phrase in this great book for granted. If you enjoy milk and if you embrace a church that has allowed its leadership to add to God's word, stay put, But I choose to shake the comfortable Mosaic Pot. To do otherwise would be shameful. I make no apologies.

...Kimberly

P.S. You may have been there longer than Ruben, but I highly doubt longer than me. Unless we knew each other at 3 years old. Your cowardly behavior leads me to believe you don't have the guts to post your name - so we'll never know who got there first. Ahh the mystery.

MOPmember said...

"Yikes! Bro. Tom was weird dude, and you had major problems with him too. You would complain about him all the time. All of you would."

Maybe you can elaborate?

Ruben said...

Anonymous said: On Dave Files: "...that song by Dave Files was horrible! No offense to Dave :)"

On the Church on Brady closing in 1998 and that Erwin starting a new service there that year: "I feel great about it. Its true."

on Brother Tom: "Bro. Tom was weird dude"

on Robert Martinez: "Erwin should have asked him to retire sooner."

Dear SiR,
You seem to be confident of your points so I will not attempt to answer most of them. I won’t change your mind, you won’t change my mind, right, SiR? (I cannot believe a lady would post such vile comments and so I will call you SiR). What I don’t understand, SiR, is why you would post such ugly comments about Brother Tom? Why would you drag him down like this? If you want to dismiss me, fine. Okay, call me Rubey Tuesday. Say that I am lying, I never met with Erwin, but SiR, why Brother Tom? And are you comfortable embarrassing Dave Files this way, SiR? You know Dave Files, and now you’re going to post something like this for so many to see? How disgusting. SiR, when you tell people that “Love is the context of all mission” and Mosaic is a “community of love” are you comfortable with that in light of your post? Finally, I have defended my pastor Brother Tom (I will always regard him as my pastor) with my name attached to it. Are you ready to do the same: defend your pastor with your name attached, SiR? If not, your secret is safe with me.

Sincerely,
Ruben Aguilar

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,
That's a funny one about plans changing regarding the new church building, and giving thanks for the donations. If Mosaic was so in the right, why did they give back money when people requested it. Because they knew they blew it. Had to cover themselves. Maybe others should request their money back, since they were misled.
Thanks for the idea, I gotta go back and look at my records, big pay day coming. MH

Anonymous said...

Yes, I agree MH. And thank you S i R - you reminded me that I put in around 1,700 - I'll be going back for that too, since I did not designate it for Chino, rather BTI (a BUILDING program). If any of you think that S i R is out of line in his comments, I suggest you put in an official request to his church, Mosaic. For your BTI money as well. And, do so thanking S i R.

em

Anonymous said...

Jacobi!

Great to hear from you man. Its been too long.

So how did your meeting with Rick go? Did you ask to meet with Erwin again? Try it again kiddo.

Anonymous said...

Lil Kim,

You love you some Tom and Carol, don't you? By the way, what's the deal with them anyway? Since you know them so well maybe you can help everyone understand that relationship. Strange stuff!

"I make no apologies." Trust me, I know. That would require humility which is definitely in short supply around these digs.

Anonymous said...

Rubes,

You wrote, "What I don’t understand, SiR, is why you would post such ugly comments about Brother Tom?"

Were you able to keep a straight face when you typed this? Are you serious? Wow! I'm sorry. I didn't realize posting ugly comments about men of God was a bad thing. Is it? You are fantastic...fantastically inconsistent! But you do have nice hair. By the way, Dave Files can take a joke, why can't you? Geesh!

Anonymous said...

To sweethearts MH & EM,

Make 'em pay up boys! Go get your money back. Of course, that would require proactivity on your parts, which is obviously not a high value to you and your blog buddies, but good luck with that!

By the way, thanks for the comfty chairs at Chino. They make all the difference in the world!

MOPmember said...

Ruben,

Obviously S i R is on the inside at Mosaic...and it looks like he is a leader there. Probably one of Erwin's right hand men. Don't you recognize the arrogance, attacking of the individual rather than the topic and the complete lack of humility?

Anonymous said...

"men of God"

Men of God? Who are we talking about? Oh, yeah, the guy who wants to destroy Christianity. Sure. Concerning Dave Files, sounds like you haven't talked to him in awhile. He's not laughing about your "man of God." And Gerardo Marti, is that the entire reason he is out on the East Coast? He was fired by Erwin, did you know that? Didn't he get his brother Alex to do it? Did that not devastate Gerardo? It did, terribly. Oh, you didn't know these things? Sounds like your not that good of a friend of Gerardo. You're one of the few that won't ever get dismissed by Erwin because I can tell you are a company man. Great. Stand by your guy. Here's a challenge for you: go call Gerardo, since you miss him so dearly. Get the facts from him. Call Dave Files, if you are so sure he can take a joke. I can tell you can take joke because you go to Mosaic but you sure aren't funny. If you want Dave's or Gerardo's number I can give it. It sounds like you don't know them well.

Anonymous said...

An "Anonymous" poster asked the following question of Kim Aguilar,

"You love you some Tom and Carol, don't you? By the way, what's the deal with them anyway? Since you know them so well maybe you can help everyone understand that relationship. Strange stuff!"

Since I inquired into the same issue while I was at Brady, I will answer (whether you want me to or not, if you are seeking truth you will not care where it comes from).

By the way, a major difference between the two ministries is that these types of questions could be asked of the Brady leadership.

Carol and her husband were very close friends with Bro Thom and his wife, Linda. As well, Carol was on staff as Director of Missions and in an Administrative position. When Carol was widowed Bro Thom and Linda continued to spend many hours with Carol, in that their families were very close friends and Carol was on staff. The relationship was always above reproach.

On the other hand, when Erwin and Carol visited us in Japan. Erwin was already plotting her demise and had her close to tears (with his little mind games) twice while they stayed with us at our mission housing. Upon their return to L.A. Erwin carried out his plan and had the widow put out on the street and asked her to fellowship elsewhere. Why? Because she was part of the old leadership. Carol had been in leadership for more than 20 years at Brady.

So, S i R, the question is more, what was up with the way that your pastor treated a widow and loyal servant of God?

Eddie Marshall

Anonymous said...

"man of god" ha ha ha ha. That is funny. I can't get over that. Your man of God demanded all the elders resign last year. Did you know that?? Your guy doesn't want to be a man of God or cultural architect but a CEO of some company. You seem to know everyone, how about asking the elders if that is true. You probably won't ask though because you get all your info from the big cultural architect. You sound so smart and open minded.

Yvonne W. said...

A reminder to all:

I am Robert Martinez' daughter Yvonne W.

In response to the "Anonymous" poster who wrote the following responses: {The anonymous poster's words are in bold print.)

What do you think of how Erwin dismissed Robert Martinez? [Probably should have been handled better...by both men! Robert had been going around telling people for years he was ready to retire. Some of what he was demanding from the church was flat out wrong and was borderline extortion. Erwin should have asked him to retire sooner.]

Is it fair to dismiss someone and then say they “retired?” [If its true, then yes. In this case, it was true.]


Anonymous,

You are a liar. End of story.

Anonymous said...

Also, your "man of God" gossips terribly about the other missionaries, according to those missionary people who had to hear the chisme. If you want the numbers to those missionaries i can give you those. But if you only get your info from the big guy, forget it.

Anonymous said...

Did you know your man of God fired Robert Martinez sometime back and made it look like a retirement. Everybody got mad at Robert for not going to the retirement fiesta. I don't know Robert's number but I can get it. Unless you only talk to Erwin then never mind. I know you already have Erwin's number.

Anonymous said...

An excerpt from Robert Martinez' open letter concerning his "retirement":

"...Having no thoughts or plans of leaving or retiring I was forced to make decisions I was not prepared for. The decision to retire me with no grounds for dismissal has certainly caused me and my family disappointment and grief. In the past several months there have been things said and done in Elders meetings, ministry meetings and private conversations which caused me to feel that I am in an unsafe environment. There have been attacks and accusations directed at me that are unfounded; many harsh and wounding words shared. From the last meeting it seemed these things would continue to occur. My heart was saddened as I have left those meetings perplexed and suspicious as to the reason for creating such turmoil in my life. I would not have expected such behavior from this leadership team and will continue to pray for resolution."

The full letter can be found on www.mosaicofpain.com "Comments 5"

MOPmember said...

"I would not have expected such behavior from this leadership team and will continue to pray for resolution."

SHAME ON YOU ELDERS OF MOSAIC THAT LET YOUR BROTHER OF OVER 25 YEARS BE TREATED SO. FALL TO YOUR KNEES, ASK GOD TO FORGIVE YOU AND MAKE THESE THINGS RIGHT, OR RESIGN YOUR ELDERSHIP!!!

Anonymous said...

SiR,
I have a hard time believing Erwin would approve of you writing this way, but who know maybe he sent you SiR. I already went through a fun time trying to get a hold of Erwin. No thanks, no more. He can call me. And I'll meet with him. But he has done so much damage SiR that he we need a group session. Bruce Welch in a past posting offered his assistance in this area. I'm game. SiR Erwin can call me and set up the time and place, and he could bring you along too SiR. Because I would like to look you in the face while you greet Kimberly. That would be humbling SiR. Come on SiR your better than this, well I thought so. JA

Anonymous said...

Anonymous S i R,

You keep saying that Ruben and others need to confront Erwin...that has happened, many times. Sadly he has been unwilling to own up to his issues. But, more importantly, what does God say?

Matthew 5:23-24

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."

Unfortunately, it has gone past Erwin, it has gone past the Elders, it is now the responsibility of the members to act accordingly. There has been more then enough time for them to realize that something is very wrong with their Body.

em

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said "thanks for the comfy chair". Wow! thats your ammo? Just like the jr. high bully of yesterday whose just been put in his place, but he's gonna have the last word, by golly, as stupid as it may sound. Bravo anonymous! You showed us itty bitty mop membas a ting o' too. Now go wipe your nose little one.

...Kimberly

Anonymous said...

Yvonne, sweetheart, I’m not lying. You’re probably a little too close to things to be objective. By the way, remind me again who your father is? I keep forgetting.

Shame on the Mosaic Elders? Do you mean Yvonne’s daddy? Of course not. He had nothing to do with any leadership decisions at Mosaic for 28 years.

Jacobi, if you were to actually meet with Erwin face to face, I would be so proud of you. I knew deep down inside you were the MAN on these sites. Everybody else talks, but you walk. I know you out of anybody could bring change and make a difference.

Ed, there may be something wrong with your body, but my Body is just fine thank you.

Kimmie, me thinks you don’t like me. Strange, I like you. There are lots of people who are dead wrong in their thinking who I like. Can’t we all just get along?

Sarah B. said...

I have followed this site for a short while now, and after reading all of your postings all I can say is…wow! There is real demonic activity in the hearts of the people on these sites. You guys are scary. I pray that the darkness that the evil one has clouded all of your minds with will be lifted. Your obsessions have turned you all into spiritual Golems that are not to be feared, but pitied. To not get angry with, but to pray for your release from the dark prisons your souls are trapped in.

This is a hate site filled with vile and evil. This site is no different than a KKK site or a neo-Nazi site. All of you write with such vitriolic language, I fear you would wish to see Erwin McManus die at your own hands. Your writings attempt to incite violence against God’s church and His people. Do you wish for Erwin’s death? If I were Erwin, I would fear for my family’s well being. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. You should all repent and beg for God to forgive you of your contemptuous hearts.

You attempt to cover yourselves in self-righteous, pious talk of days of yesteryear. You dwell incessantly on the past and are obsessed with petty squabbles over your Precious or "Brady". You've allowed Satan to get a foothold into your souls that have corrupted you from the inside out. You tell lies and vicious half-truths. You spread gossip and falsehood and proclaim it the gospel truth. You have no love for truth, only for your Precious. You can no longer see the truth even when its stares you down eye to eye. You walk a coward's path of throwing rocks from a safe distance with your blogs and websites when you could easily speak face to face with these people you viciously attack. You obviously all know each other. You call these people out by name all the time. You have an incredibly overblown high sense of yourself and the worth of your blogging.

Please let go of this ungodly nonsense while you still can. Forgive, move on, pray and ask God to release you from the hold of bitterness. Ask God to heal your body from the ravages of the bitter poison that has been oozing and pulsing through your bodies for so long. You can be free of this stuff if only you will renounce it in the name of Jesus Christ. He is your Only hope!

Sarah B.

Anonymous said...

Dear Scott,

Why don't you use your full name?

Are you afraid of something. Maybe people would see you for who you really are...just another wolf in sheep's clothing?

This is a serious subject, might I suggest you get serious or go away and do not come back.

Eddie Marshall

MOPmember said...

Sarah B.

Me thinks you a strange little bird.

Anonymous said...

Sarah,

Maybe you can substantiate a couple of your claims?

It's all here. Just take one or two of the comments and point out the "half-truth" or bitter vial, etc..?

We will be the first to correct it and/or appologize.

Anonymous said...

Dear Sarah,

Let's say for a moment that some of what is written about on this blog were true. And let's say that half the people here did go to Erwin and other leaders at Mosaic, but there was not change. Should there be nothing done? How about 10% of it were fact?

Your comment presumes that none of this is true and all these individuals just want Erwin's demise. No, you should read the mission statement for this site. It clearly states that we just want Erwin to resign, and any of the elders that continue to empower him in his abuses. Nobody here wishes anyone any physical harm, that would not serve any purpose.

It is obvious that you are hurt by this blog and that is unfortunate, but it is here and will stay until the problems have been addressed.

em

Anonymous said...

Wow! Sarah B. takin' you kids to the woodshed. Preach it sister! Me thinks she nailed it.

Anonymous said...

If someone committed a crime and their loved ones went to the trial and heard the prosecution present the evidence. I'm sure their loved ones would respond the same way that sarah b has. "Oh my if people hear these accusations my loved one will be in jeopardy! That is not a good reason to silence public discourse and derail justice. This site has never advocated anything other than open discussion for the purpose of addressing misuse of power within a church.

Anonymous said...

" Anonymous said...

Wow! Sarah B. takin' you kids to the woodshed. Preach it sister! Me thinks she nailed it."


You would Scott...you would.

Anonymous said...

You go Sarah B. - just another shining example of how Mosaic deals with conflict.

Ruben said...

Sarah: when people call me “demonic,” “scary,”
“KKK,” and “neo-Nazi” I usually tune out their requests that I “forgive,” “hope,” and “pray.” I get regular encouragement from people in and out of Mosaic to keep blogging. I don’t know you but try to have a good day.

Anonymous said...

"This is a hate site filled with vile and evil. This site is no different than a KKK site or a neo-Nazi site."

Can you imagine sitting in a meeting, at a church no less, with someone that talks to you like this?

: 0

Anonymous said...

How about that, Rubie Dee? You tune out people who call you names? Interesting, I wonder if anyone else does that when horrible lies are said about them?

By the way, who's Scott?

Anonymous said...

" Ruben said...

Sarah: when people call me “demonic,” “scary,” “KKK,” and “neo-Nazi” I usually tune out their requests that I “forgive,” “hope,” and “pray.” I get regular encouragement from people in and out of Mosaic to keep blogging. I don’t know you but try to have a good day."



The number of leaders, including some high ups at Mosaic that have supported this effort with kind words is surprisingly high.

I agree with you Ruben, Sarah, please have a nice day.

em

Ruben said...

"How about that, Rubie Dee? You tune out people who call you names? Interesting, I wonder if anyone else does that when horrible lies are said about them?

By the way, who's Scott?"

I won't reply directly to your points because I think I already have and I don't believe I will ever convince you, nor you me. I'll continue to allow your posts as long as you are relatively civil. (I liked Rubey Tuesday better, though, but it's Rubey with a "y.")

Anonymous said...

Sarah B. I think your writing speak for itself. Anyone out there just has to read your post to get a inkling on what's going on with discipleship at Mosaic. Scarry. MH

Anonymous said...

Annonymous,

Go ahead and leave your email with Ruben. He won't post it and I'll get a hold of you. I really don't think your helping Erwin, Mosaic or the "Church" by your snide put downs on many of the leaders that built that church. I know your loyal to him and that's understandable,(maybe not to all of us) but we have a large group of individuals who have been hurt by him with financial decisions, theology missteps and or "abused" (treatment) while attending Mosaic. I know you don't fall in any of these three categories. My own concern is in the area of theology. I think Erwin and his "emerging" phylosophy is dangerous. Not just only to Mosaic but to the "Church." So I and others on this site, and other sites will continue to document Erwin when he strays from the word. Most of his abuse is in the area of finances and with individuals has come out. Some hasn't, but I'm sure in time it will. Erwin will eventually have to address it. Pride is a tough thing. I know I have it. And its tough to see Erwin struggling with it. So email me if you think I could help. We wait for the day to close up MOP, but he has to take that first step. Eddie hit it on the head with Matt 5:23-24.
-Jacob

Anonymous said...

"man of god"

Hey MOPmember, no offense but no way is this guy a leader at the church with how he writes. He can't be and call
Tom Wolf and Carol weird. Mosaic elders are good people. This guy can't even keep his lies straight.

Anonymous said...

“man of god”
ha ha. What happened when you called your dear friend on the east coast? What did he say? I don’t think you called him because if you did you would not like what he’d say. How about the elders, did you call them? Did you ask them if Erwin demanded their resignations? I thought you had an open mind I know how you feel though because once I was told the iraq war was going good and that the moon was made from swiss cheese but when I asked around I was set straight. You would be too if you asked. PS is sarah b. you? If it is, sheesh!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Mosaicite,

You like me? People don't condescend people they like. Quite frankly, your manner and tone in which you address me is creepy.

In regards to Robert Martinez, he knows full well that many (perhaps not all)on this site were not fans of his while he remained on staff with Mosaic. But now that he's seen the light he has our sympathy, well at least mine. Hey, once Pastor Erwin sees the light we may all get along, until then the spirit and words coming out of the Mosaic ministry will be tested.

...Kimberly

Anonymous said...

I've been out of the Church loop for awhile so maybe I'm just not hip to this "new Christianity" or whatever it is. First of all, be it at a church or anywhere else, if you raise money for one thing, and people give money for that thing, then you spend it on something else, not matter how good the intentions are, it's called theft. It's been called theft forever. So when a member of said church responds like this:

"It was money well spent. Thanks for your generous donations! "
He acknowledges the theft-

"By the way, thanks for the comfty chairs at Chino. They make all the difference in the world!"
And he delights in it.

I'm perplexed! Another bizarre thing is a grown man in his 30's referring to another grown man as "Rubie" or "Rubey Tuesday" or to a grown woman as "Lil' Kim" or "Kimmy" and so on, and then calls Tom Wolf a weird dude.
-Jay Parker

Anonymous said...

Maybe SiR went to go ask some questions?

Christine said...

wow...okay...[tap tap] is this thing on?

Getting back to the Review...

Great skills Ruben!