Letters, We Get Letters
I have received my share of responses from the Mosaic of Love and here is just a sample. All comments are in quotes. My response is in bold. Enjoy:
"You are such a complete idiot. (And a pretty arrogant one as well!) I've read both blogs and you sir, are completely out of line and have misrepresented everything. I've read all of these blogs, and you and your peeps come across pathetic and petty. If "healing" and "repentence" was really what you wanted, even a small mentally challenged child would know that these silly blogs are not the way to do that."
"cry babies"
"This is a hate site filled with vile and evil. This site is no different than a KKK site or a neo-Nazi site. All of you write with such vitriolic language, I fear you would wish to see Erwin McManus die at your own hands. Your writings attempt to incite violence against God’s church and His people. Do you wish for Erwin’s death? If I were Erwin, I would fear for my family’s well being. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. You should all repent and beg for God to forgive you of your contemptuous hearts."
"Why would you not call us or talk face to face? That's what Christians do. They don't publish vomit. This is now what you do for a living. You are the host of a Mosaic hate blog. I feel deep sorrow for you."
"Yes, the (BTI) fund was spent in part to buy the facility at Inland (which is 1.3 miles outside of LA County), to refurbish William Carey (Mosaic has it on full lease for 7 years) and is looking for land in Beverly Hills (btw, there is no Pomona County). So, technically they did spend the money on a building. "
"Plans change. Chino became a part of Mosaic and needed help. It was money well spent. Thanks for your generous donations! The people at Mosaic Inland greatly appreciate it...By the way, thanks for the comfty chairs at Chino. They make all the difference in the world!"
"If you are actually a believer in Christ (which I question at this point), You would be interested in speaking the truth in love so as to bring a reconciliation before the Cross. I appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to do just that. There is no place in the church for the anonymous throwing of accusations (Satan is the "accuser of the brethren). How do I know that your attack isn't because you have a root of bitterness in your own heart that has defiled you and is reaching out to defile others? Or that you have chosen to forsake the Lord?"
"I really do hope more credible (not "anonymous" people) come forward to give us some concrete evidence of Erwin's wrongdoings. NO disrespect, but intense discussions at BBQs, under appreciation for use of an edit bay, not doing someone's wedding, asking someone to step down and get help in a time of personal family crisis are definitely not enough to call for a man's resignation. You talk about all of the pain, I am just not seeing what merits that, besides being hurt over the Brady/Mosaic transition."
"for those who you who figure out who i am, and you have something to say. find me and say it. and if you decide to email me, give me a name and face so i know you got the gonads to face me as a real person..i dare you to post my comment and this one as well. let the people visiting this site you have nothing to hide. let them know you are witting and silly comments can combat anything. but if you decide to get serious with it, i'll know you are real when i revisit this page in a few days and see both of my comments posted."
"I'd never heard of the syndrome known as Narcisissm in the Pulpit. I have heard a lot though about a different syndrome -- Narcisissm in the Pew. Has anyone talked about that yet?Oh wait, I guess you guys do every day."
"Well...I guess if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, blogs like a duck..."
"quit hating on Erwin, he leads people to Christ and is all about the revival in this land and around the world."
"I think that you are missing the "behind the scenes" of Mosaic’s and Erwin’s ability shape culture. Do not assume that because someone is not in the spotlight or given tons of money that they aren't affecting culture.Not too many Christian personalities can say that they have the attention of the Disney Corporation's CEO. Not too many people can say that they are invited to dinners in Beverly Hills with Dr. Phil, Larry King and 50 of the A list Hollywood celebrities."
"okay first of all, if erwin is the problem then everyone from MOP is to blame. After all, you guys allowed this man to enter your church and take the role as lead pastor. How I see it, it was the original members of Church on Brady that allowed this to happen. didn't anyone even bother to check him out or were you all "enchanted" by his charisma? Did you at least checkout his theology and personal beliefs? If he is this bad, this should have been stopped in 1997, NOT 2007. You guys, Frank, Robby, Cris, etc, are the ones that failed Brother Tom and the rest of the congregation. due diligence. guard your house!!!"
"Is there any real purpose to all of this? What can a MOP do to change any of it?"
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That is the important question, correct? What is the purpose of MOP? A response from a particular Mosaic member responded better than I could. She writes:
"Well guys,
Thank you so much for your further clarification. I am very concerned, and completely disagree with the handling of the money. I'm also concerned that a group of 40 leaders were informed of this decision, yet, my husband and I weren't. I believe that there needs to be a public disclosure about this, beyond the comments of this blog, that comes from the Mosaic leadership team itself, to the congregation at Mosaic.
Please say a prayer for us, as we consider how to move forward with our concerns. I am tempted to not even try to confront these issues, as it seems that many people are treated poorly when they confront things.
I am also concerned that Erwin has never mentioned in his books or at leadership advance, etc, anything about being willing to purchase a building, let alone the fact that Mosaic at one point set out to buy a building. One of the reasons my husband and I chose Mosaic as home, was because it wasn't centered around a building, and made claims that Church on Brady was sold because of the same reasoning. Sounds like we've been manipulated and lied to. We came from a church that was destroyed by a crazy building program and misuse of funds, and here we go again. I'm just so grieved right now. I think things like this is why Erwin's coined phrase about "Christianity being an enemy to the movement of Jesus Christ" has meaning. Church politics and spiritual abuse is one of those things in Christianity that make people turn away. I wonder if Erwin has considered that his own actions in church have fueled this idea?
I'm am thankful that you are willing to speak in a public forum about this and are putting your names out there, and taking a stand. God Bless You All.
Erwin and Mosaic Staff,
If you are reading this, I may or may not try and talk to you guys about all of this for your explanation. But, regardless of what answers I may or may not get, please think through the possibility of coming clean to your congregation about what's going on right now. Please meet with these men and women who have been wounded. I agree with them, a public forum would be best to give them the opportunity to heal and move on. That's the only way for them to feel safe."
37 comments:
Ruben,
Thanks for the post. Does anyone have the "nice" quotes left to you guys from Mosaic leadership that were placed on the original MOP myspace? Ya know the one that Erwin shut down by calling the police on Dave. MH
Don't you just love it when no comment is even needed? That says it all!
(effect: crickets)
S I L E N C E
(effect: more crickets)
RUBEN!!!
Why don't you post the comments where Mosaic members and leaders have been genuine, sincere and understanding?
Oh yeah, I forgot . . .
THERE AREN'T ANY!!!
As my momma always said, "If you ain't got nothin' good to say, then don't say nothin' at all."
Tell a tree by it's "comments".
: 0
Ruben,
You aren't the only one receiving "missives of love."
Please check out my latest blog entry at http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/
Once you've read what NameCritic had to say to me, check out what he has to say about guarding one's "reputation" at one of his blogs: http://thingsthatjustpissmeoff.blogspot.com/
Yvonne W.
By the way, NameCritic is a member of Mosaic Miami and runs a blog about it.
Looking at the support Mosaic gets, one wonders how liberal are they? What world views have been accepted or ignored for convenience? Another can of worms opened?
Gosh, Ruben, what happened to the gracious and loving posts by people like Laura Oronoz, Eric Bryant, and Jimmy Duke, who posted early on? What happened to the genuine and meaningful conversations engaged in by Matt Shriver and myself? Or were they not loving enough for you? I am saddened by some of the comments that were posted -- but I guess when you send mass emails and MySpace messages to hundreds of people in the Mosaic community, I guess you're going to get a grab bag of responses, not all of them good. But we breed what we lead -- take a look at some of the comments you guys posted yourselves -- such self-promoting posts as "Long live MOP" (I thought the website wasn't self-promoting) and factual errors as "Erwin called the cops" (anyone with knowledge of what happened knows that wasn't true), not to mention derogatory comments made about Mosaic members and leaders.
Gal 5:15,
Yeah you guys have been great. And since I know what happened with the "cop" story, why don't you enlighten us with your version. There have been some positive post by Mosaic members. But the community of love your associated with, really doesn't show too much love. The majority of responses on this site and others are posted above. The more scathing ones came from the leaders on the original MOP site. And uhh can you help me with the deragotory comments. Uhh where? And Chris and Ruben post almost everything. There is no club here. If the "Long Live MOP" comment is all you got, then I think you better think this one over some more. And let's just say we were just saying dishonest things, which we're not, shouldn't you guys be better. I think people who read this blog and others are intelligent enought to make up their own mind. They see what's happening. And some, including leaders, in your own church ask us to continue. We're begging to hear from more people like you. But we just get more from the likes of people from above. And the comments didn't come from some mass mailing or My space. Came from these blogs. Fuzzing things up doesnt' do well for you or to those who read these blogs. "Community of love". May want to change that one. MH
GAL 5:15 said...
Gosh, Ruben, what happened to the gracious and loving posts by people like Laura Oronoz, Eric Bryant, and Jimmy Duke, who posted early on?
YES THEY STARTED NICE...FINISHED..?
What happened to the genuine and meaningful conversations engaged in by Matt Shriver and myself?
AND YOU ARE?
Or were they not loving enough for you? I am saddened by some of the comments that were posted -- but I guess when you send mass emails and MySpace messages to hundreds of people in the Mosaic community, I guess you're going to get a grab bag of responses, not all of them good. But we breed what we lead --
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, EXACTLY?
take a look at some of the comments you guys posted yourselves -- such self-promoting posts as "Long live MOP" (I thought the website wasn't self-promoting)
WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT MOP "IS NOT SELF PROMOTING"? NOT THAT IT IS...BUT HAVEN'T SEEN THAT PART IN THE MISSION STATEMENT. AND THOSE OTHER HORRIFIC EXAMPLES THAT YOU HAVE SITED ABOUT MOP MEMBERS BEING SO HARSH AND NASTY! OUCH...
and factual errors as "Erwin called the cops" (anyone with knowledge of what happened knows that wasn't true),
IT SPIRIT...IN SPIRIT...SORT LIKE THE WAY THAT ERWIN DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH TOM WOLF'S REMOVAL - FEIGNED INNOCENCE - "OH, GOSH I WASN'T EVEN THERE DURING THOSE ELDER MEETINGS. ISN'T ERWIN AN ELDER, AS WELL? CONVENIENT TIME TO BE AWOL.
not to mention derogatory comments made about Mosaic members and leaders.
TELL YOU WHAT GAL 5:15 - HOW ABOUT YOU DO A LITTLE WORK AND SITE ALL THOSE DEROGATORY COMMENTS FOR THE WORLD TO SEE...THAT IS WHAT RUBEN DID. BUT THEN AGAIN, IT MIGHT BE RATHER SLIM PICKINGS FOR YOUR SEARCH...HUH?
"YES THEY STARTED NICE...FINISHED..?"
The comments from Mosaic leaders ended when you guys made it very clear that you were gunning for Erwin's head. It's kind of tough to respond to something like that. Especially when this website was constructed with decidedly one-sided views of situations that are profoundly more complicated than you'd like them to be.
I said: "we breed what we lead" and MOPMember replied, "WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, EXACTLY?" It means that people will fill the space you create. If you want to create a space for meaningful dialogue and interaction, people will join you in that. However, you didn't. Those of us who tried, were shouted down. So after a while, there is no choice but to stew in your juices.
"HOW ABOUT YOU DO A LITTLE WORK AND SITE ALL THOSE DEROGATORY COMMENTS FOR THE WORLD TO SEE...THAT IS WHAT RUBEN DID."
See pages 2-6. The derogatory tone and increasingly dismissive comments to anyone who disagreed with you is well-posted for all to see. (See repeated references to Mosaic posters as "drinkers of Kool-Aid" and "attack dogs", for starters. See the derogatory comment about Matt Shriver one page back for an additional example.)
Gunning for Erwin's head. Nice...What is the consequence for the damage Erwin has done? Now the theology. Well if Mosaic wants to go Emergent. Let them be. Articles will continue to be written on this topic, because the emergent way doesn't make a lot of sense. And what issues are complicated. Why don't you unravel the hidden mysteries of the mistreatment of brothers and sisters. And I'm sorry that you don't like the dialogue that's been displaye here. I'm sure you just want us to go away. That sounds like the dialogue we're used to. Just go away. Stewing in our own juices. WE miss all the meaningful dialogue. "Being shouted down" - Do you mean Mosaic members writing with emotion and protection of EM only, and our response using scripture and citing examples of past wrongs. Yeah then we're guilty. And you cite two examples of deragatory comments. I must say they seem nominal to what we get here. Drinking Kool-Aid, well there's a good arguement there. Maybe a matter of opinion. Im sure not all have taken from the fruit of the punch bowl. Sending "attack dogs", well they didn't come to see how Robbie was doing. We know this from the nice phone call from Dave Arcos. Now, do some members get carried away. Sure. Some of its righteous anger, some of its just anger. You never stay focused. Come back and deal with the specific wrongs. Erwin could make things right. But instead of making things right. We get post like yours.
Please!
ALL of us need to keep in mind the distinction between:
1. Comments made by anonymous posters.
2. Comments made by named persons.
3. Comments made on website other than Ruben's Reviews.
Don't equate Ruben's Reviews with Mosaic of Pain, these are separate websites with links to each other because they both feature Erwin McManus as their topic of interest. If you feel you must address a comment made at one of these sites, please do so at the site where the comment appears.
Don't blame Ruben (or anyone else) for things said by "anonymous" posters; just because Ruben has a policy of publishing all comments, that doesn't mean he endorses the views expressed in those comments.
If ,you want to comment on something a named source said, please refer to that particular comment and provide a link or other directions on where to find the original so that it can be viewed in its surrounding context.
Also, for those of you who feel it was unfair for Ruben to highlight the negative comments he has received let me remind you that Ruben didn't write those comments himself. If taken as a group they make other people look bad, well; isn't this why everyone should carefully review what you say before hitting the "post" button?
One more thing, please don't use all caps when writing an entire post, in internet ettiquette this is considered "shouting" and is just plain annoying. If you want to emphasize a point, use html tags.
Yvonne
Ruben, if I have over-stepped my bounds by writing this, please don't post this comment.
Gal 5:50: "I am saddened by some of the comments that were posted" These have been coming from the very beginning. Are you saddened enough to openly condemn the statements? I posted a very positive statement about Matt Shriver and he knows I respect him. There is one poster who mentioned that Matt didn't want to dialogue with him. Do you consider that derogatory? That is a FAR cry from calling him "demonic" or "Nazi." Or how about the poster (who is clearly a leader) who openly mocked those that invested into the BTI campaign for a building by saying they are "enjoying the comfy chairs" in Chino? And making sport with people's names, that was really mature (ha ha, Rubey Tuesday, so funny). Where is your open rebuke at such mockery? I am not angry with you, Gal 5:50, your tone has always been fine. But it says a lot about your community when no one condemns the ugly, vicious statements that have been posted from your side.
"See pages 2-6. The derogatory tone and increasingly dismissive comments to anyone who disagreed with you is well-posted for all to see. (See repeated references to Mosaic posters as "drinkers of Kool-Aid" and "attack dogs", for starters. See the derogatory comment about Matt Shriver one page back for an additional example."
Do your work Gal 5:50. It is very easy to "copy & paste" the exact references you are wanting us to look at. Or, is it because you want readers to assume they are there, when you know that if you copied them here, readers would be like, "What is this guy talking about!?"
Come on...let's see those big bad derogatory comments. If you don't put them here, guess we can assume they aren't there.
"The comments from Mosaic leaders ended when you guys made it very clear that you were gunning for Erwin's head.
Please do not forget the Elders that are culpable, too. Thanks.
P.S. "Gunning" is your word...we would be more like "resignation".
Ruben:
I regularly attended Mosaic from late 2002 to mid-2007. I saw a lot and observed much of apostasy there and false believers/false leaders misleading seekers and young Christians. The only decent leader or elder that I ran across at Mosaic was Pastor Eric Bryant. I believe that God will have mercy on Eric Bryant.
Many Mosaic members are leaving recently and going to other churches in the area like Lake Avenue (Warehouse Service), New Song, Christian Assembly in Eagle Rock and Harvest Rock, etc.
Erwin and his gang of Elders and his so called gang wanabees (volunteer leaders and volunteer staff) are described in the New Testament expressly as "tares" (see Bible verse below):
"Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, 'First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.' "
—Matthew 13:30
Like Ananias and Sappphira, Erwin and his apostate gang of elders and his gang of wannabees will be judged by God Almighty, the Creator of Heaven and Earth:
Ananias and Sapphira had a choice: They could give a lot to the early church, or they could give a little. Nothing was required of them, but they decided to act as though they were giving a lot when they really were not. This was a sin of hypocrisy.
The Bible also says they lied to the Holy Spirit. This was a specific sin against the Spirit of God. Ananias and Sapphira found out that you can't fool God. It is interesting that the name Ananias means "God is gracious," but he found out that God is also holy. The name Sapphira means "beautiful," but her heart was ugly with sin. It is easy for us to condemn Ananias and Sapphira for their dishonesty. But maybe we need to examine our own lives to see if our profession is backed up by our practice.
The devil loves to counterfeit the genuine. He appears to operate by the adage, "If you can't beat them, join them." He has his tares among the wheat. There are false Christians. There are false preachers. There are false teachers, false apostles, and false prophets.
There are Ananiases and Sapphiras in our ranks. The Judas Iscariots are out there too. They go to the same churches as we do. They live in the same neighborhoods. They go to the same schools.
But one of these days God, who knows all hearts, will separate the wheat from the chaff and the true from the false.
Like Judas and other apostate traitors, Erwin and his gang of elders/leaders and his gang wanabees will be judged by God. The result for such false believers will not be pretty.
Right now it is hard for many on Earth (and in our own City of Los Angeles) to distinguish between the visible Church (all professing believers both false and true) and the invisible Church (actual "true believers"). But God in good time will divide the visible Church from the invisible Church. False believers and false leaders will suffer the wrath of God who is a consuming fire.
True believers and faithful leaders will be rewarded for the perseverance and their faith.
Erwin and the fools and jesters and pride-filled elders that follow him and his New Age/Apostate/cult-like man-centered teachings have all obviously forgotten the words of the Apostle Paul:
"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Philippians 2:12.
He and his cohorts have forgotten that salvation is not a free pass for those with a passing interest in Christ and a passing dedication to the Bible but salvation is for those labor faithfully, run the race faithfully and shine as lights in the world in the midst of a perverse and crooked nation and who are eternally dedicated the word of God.
May God have mercy on them ; for God's judgment is coming quickly.
SiR,
Crazy stuff regarding Dave T, you and Gal 5 may want to get your story straight. Murderous rage...come on now. That probably should have been handled better by staff (Erwin). Who's feeding you guys this stuff? I won't go into it, I'll let Dave shares if he cares to.
You want to know something. This site is the best thing for Mosaic. This site was way long over due. And shame on me for not speaking up sooner. Can you imagine all the lives that have been affected, for the good. Better now than in a couple of years, when the whole church will be affected. Well i guess the Emergent teachings are affecting the church. Let's scratch that. I think you follow what I'm saying. A MOP MEMBER
Now come on Scott, you know its not SIR, but SiR. And welcome back. wink wink
Why do people keep calling me Scott? Do you think my name is Scott or something? Trust me kiddos, I served with a Scott: I know a Scott; Scott is a friend of mine, and I am no Scott!
As for DT, that myspace page spoke for itself. Crazy, scary, freaky stuff was on that page. I believe the word "unhealthy" came to mind. I don't care who called the Police. I'm just glad they did.
By the way, whoever is winking at me better be cute!
Annonymous,
We know things are happening at Mosaic when we get post from Gal 5 and SiR (And from talking to our friends at Mosaic). I think it would be better for the members to stay at Mosaic and request the pastor and elders to get things right, but if the Pastor refuses and hardens his heart and neck. Well I don't agree, but I understand. MH
I REPEAT.
Do your work Gal 5:50 [sic]. It is very easy to "copy & paste" the exact references you are wanting us to look at. Or, is it because you want readers to assume they are there, when you know that if you copied them here, readers would be like, "What is this guy talking about!?"
Come on...let's see those big bad derogatory comments. If you don't put them here, guess we can assume they aren't there.
WE ARE WAITING.
Although I post everything, I felt the last commment by SiR was severely disparaging of a friend of mine so I felt like I had to take it down. You are welcome in this forum, SiR, but again, try to be more civil when you post.
One thing for certain.
Ruben you have been quite the Gentleman here. Nobody can argue with that.
Clarification: I wrote yesterday that I post everything. Well, I took down that first post from SiR and now, I have decided to not publish a letter that someone sent to me yesterday criticizing Mosaic. While I appreciate your concern for Mosaic, poster, I felt that you are too critical of that body in general. I have friends that still go to Mosaic who I feel are not automatons, and some, in fact, have written to me to keep running "Ruben's Reviews" and want to see in change in the Mosaic leadership. I hope you understand my feelings about this. Feel free to post again.
Gal 5:15,
Still awaiting those cut & paste comments you were going to provide.
All,
Is it me, or does Gal 5:15 feel like so many others that come here and make sweeping statements, then when they are asked to give just a bit of small proof they disappear? And, then within a couple of days a new screen name pops up with very similar tactics.
Gal 5:15 & Ruben:
I just left Mosaic several of months ago after suffering through several years of Erwin's narcissistic sermons. What strikes me is that in my several years of examining the Book table at Mosaic is that I have never seen the Holy Bible there (offered either for free or for sale).
All I have seen at that table are Erwin's books and Erwin's tapes. Is God's Church about God or about Erwin ?? Or is Erwin in his own mind a God ?? Erwin like Narcissus pines away looking at his own reflection it appears.
Erwin like the character Dr. Moreau in the film and book "The Island of Dr. Moreau" (by H.G. Wells) tries to be a God-like character by creating a new mutation theology via his distorted teachings (combining human-centered philosophies with the divine teachings of the Holy Bible).
In that book and film "The Island of Dr. Moreau", the scientist Dr. Moreau tries in a God-like fashion to blend humans with animals to create a new mutated race. However, his attempts end in disaster with ugly mutated evil beings which end up creating disaster on the island and burning down his scientific compound called the "house of pain".
Erwin's "house of pain" is Mosaic where he blends man-centered philosophy (humanism, secularism, New Age concepts. etc.) with various apostate teachings , trying to merge them into the teachings of God in the Holy Bible.
The resulting mutated theology is a distortion of the Bible and the Word of God. This ugly mutated poisonous theology is deadly to those non-discerning seekers and Christians who absorb it and follow it as it leads to "spiritual death" and "spiritual weakness". Erwin's mutated theology mocks and satirizes and belittles "Christianity" and the Word of God.
The Word of God is minimized at Mosaic while Erwin's mutated and distorted theology is maximized and the result is the creation (man) instead of worshipping the Creator (God), chooses to worship himself that is creation of God (mankind).
Thus, Man is maximized over God at Mosaic. Thus, the Bible and the Cross is turned upside down at Mosaic ("The house of pain").
Erwin is just a big signpost that we are in the stage of the End Times Church. Erwin should read
2 Timothy 3:1-5:
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy.....
Traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT DENYING THE POWER THEREOF: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY......"
Erwin should also read carefully 2 Timothy 4:1-4 which has a strong warning that God will judge those FAIL TO preach the Word of God but instead preach a distortion OR A MUTATION of God's Word in the Holy Bible:
"I charge you therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
AND THEY SHALL TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, AND SHALL BE TURNED UNTO FABLES."
Erwin in his narcissism has turned the Word of God into fables and New Age /secularism / humanism teachings. In his narcissism, he has followed the popularity polls and preached what the nondiscerning want to hear; not what God wants to hear, that is the Word of God, the Holy Bible.
Erwin, please repent as you know God will judge both the living and the dead. Although your mutated theology is popular with the living........Your mutated theology is "spiritually dead".
Ruben,
What is perplexing about all this is that Mosaic has not budged one bit. The dozens of things you and the other moppers have stated has been either ignored or they haven't budged from their position. There hasn't been any apologies or a statement saying we aplogize for those we have hurt, we'll look into our practices and make some changes. Nothing. Zero. Just as one poster stated--Circling the Wagons. However, you've recieved your share of "insensitive" responses, example from Scott, I mean S.i R. Do you think they'll ever humble themselves?
Fellow Poster:
Although Mosaic may not have moved yet, please consider the pagan city of Jericho in the Old Testament. The pagans of Jericho laughed at the Israelites as they marched around the mighty walls of Jericho.
However, justice was done in the end. The faithfulness of those holy people who followed God caused God to bring down the mighty walls of Jericho crashing down. The pagans of Jericho were destroyed subsequently for their pride, their pagan/barbarian ways and their many sins.
God is just and God will judge the wicked. God will judge the living and the dead at the time of final judgment. God is not mocked. What a man sows a man will reap. Erwin and his New Age/Apostate cronies sow apostasy and mutated theology so they will reap the judgment of God. God is a consuming fire as Jesus himself mentioned in the New Testament on many occasions.
I want to be clear...I feel that my Brothers and Sisters at Mosaic, that includes Erwin, are Believers, not Apostate or "Wolves in Sheep's clothing", etc...
My purpose here, as is the same of many on MOP that I have heard from or talked to, is to call Mosaic and her Body to be more loving to the Flock of Believers at large.
There seems to be a very simple division of who the Church is suppose to minister to. All I want to do is ask that, individuals that have used that difference of opinion go back and make their wrongs right, and stop abusing other Believers in the name of Christ.
God's Speed to all.
Eddie Marshall
Eddie Marshall,
You seem to be a sensitive, honorable and diplomatic gentleman. I commend you for your diplomacy. However, I must say that the Bible clearly states that God will not be so diplomatic and that God will distinguish at the time of Final Judgment between "true believers" and "false believers" within the Church.
Right now, all we see are "believers", that all who profess to be Christians, that is the "visible Church". However, even now God sees the "visible Church" (consisting of true believers as well as false believers) and God also sees the "Invisible Church" , that is the body of "true believers" only. Scripture seems to say that even "the righteous [will] be scarcely saved". That is, even many "true believers" will
barely make it into Heaven/paradise.
"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the HOUSE OF GOD: AND IF IT FIRST BEGIN WITH US, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God ?
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
1 PETER 4: 17-18.
To: Anonymous, MOP members, Mosaic loyalists, Eddie Marshall & Ruben,
Looks to me like all of you have some valid points and some valid emotions, but also looks to me like both the MOP members and the Mosaic loyalists and the attack dogs of Christianity and the so called apostate "Emerging church" movement , all of you have forgotten what Jesus said from the Cross:
"Forgive them for they know not what they do ..." LUKE 23:34
I am sure that Mosaic and some of the Mosaic Loyalists and the Emerging Church have committed many wrongs and hurt many people. I am sure that some members of MOP have also done the same. Maybe all of you on both sides and all sides should just meet and talk........meet and talk at the foot of the Cross.....
Erwin and the leaders of Mosaic, the leaders of MOP, the EC leaders, the attack dogs of Christianity, you can all go and see the blood of Jesus on the ground and on the cross and all over our Savior's body and face...maybe then all of you will just talk it out....maybe then........until that day.....may God be with all of you.
Annonymous,
We are in agreement. The blogs have countlessly asked for answers from Mosaic. Asked for a meeting. We are still waiting. I don't know the "attack dogs" your referring to, but I do know that this site is for resolution. Thank you MH
To the person whos' post starts with,"you are such a complete idiot."
I was wondering why we have to,"guess" who you are??? Do you not have the capacity to own your own comments.
I am not a Mosaic member, past, present or future. But I have found this site and I am thankful.
I read the Barbarian Way, and if the Mosaic parishioners had read it too, they wouldn't be posting comments such as Erwin being scared for his family and his life. Apparently he doesn't even care for their safety let alone their lives. I read the book and found nothing but an individual that loves to talk, but doesn't back it up with actual doing. I was waiting for the punchline, hoping I was going to see the great revelation like so many others have.
Its one thing for a pastor and his church to put on a good face publicly but privately do they really live what they say? That's what we want to know. Do you live the barbarian way of love? I have not seen that here in Mosaic members responses to these former members. All I see is hate and other markings of a congregation that does not have the Spirit indwelling in them. That tells me all I need to know about Erwin McManus.
Annonymous,
Thank you for your post. There are some good God loving people at Mosaic. But your correct on the leadership. YOur post is read by volunteer staff, staff and Erwin. The site is up for them. And they keep coming back, I hope they will respond differently in the near future. Maybe Eric I mean Gal 5 will come back with a more sensitive heart. We can only pray. MH
So much wasted time here.
The harvest is ripe, and the labourers are few.
Anytime someone sets himself up as a leader instead of a servant you will get abuse. This site is unbelievable. I cannot understand that Christian believers are engaging is this type of dialog. Shame on us all for being a part of this.
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